 |
The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Wikipedia. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Before editing this page, please make sure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss on the talk page. Always remember to keep cool when editing. Changes to this page do not immediately change policy anyway, so don't panic. |
 |
This page is not for proposing or discussing edits to protected pages.
All substantial edits to a protected page should be proposed on its talk page, and will be implemented if a consensus is found to do so. If the page is fully protected, you may attract the attention of an admin to make the change by placing the {{editprotected}} template above your request. Requests placed here will probably be removed or ignored.
|
 |
Wording in semi-protection
This section says: "Semi-protection prevents edits from anonymous users (IP addresses), or from accounts that are not autoconfirmed. "
How does it decide which to enforce? Random? Decides one day we're preventing anonymous users and the next we're preventing non-autoconfirmed users? Stipulated by the person protecting the article?
Or is this language incorrect and it prevents edits from anon and nonautoconfirmed users while the article is protected? If so, why is the 'or' there? That would imply the varying restricted classes are exclusive of one another at a given time which really doesn't make any sense as policy (if your going to restrict nonautoconfirmed users wouldn't you retric anons too? What is the utility in failing to do that?).
Perhaps someone should explain how the software decides which class to restrict (random? user-specified at protection institution?) or should be changed to indicate it prevents both for the duration of the protection (change or to and). -Δζ (talk) 09:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it should say and. In typical natural language English, people often switch ands and ors like that. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes it's both at the same time. It was probably written as "semiprotection is used to restrict anon users or non-autoconfirmed accounts" to tell admins when to use it, but it does both indiscriminately. -Royalguard11(T) 19:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- Gotcha, thanks for clarifying and changing the wording. I think that section should be accurate , which it appears to be, now, since it restricts one of the principles wikipedia was founded upon.--Δζ (talk) 15:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Confirmed revisions as an alternative to full protection
See a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Flagged_revisions#Confirmed_revisions where it is proposed to use a system of flagged revisions as an alternative to full protection during edit wars and disputes. Cenarium Talk 22:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
lifting long-term semi-protection of featured articles
I'd like to request the attention and participation of those interested in this discussion over lifting long-term semi-protection of featured articles. Shiva (Visnu) 21:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Pre-emptive creation protection
We have enshrined language stating "Administrators should not use creation protection as a pre-emptive measure, but only in response to actual events." I see good reason for this as a general rule of thumb, but I think pre-emptive protection for short time periods may be a great drama and work reducer for certain types of clear cut cases. I delete many A7s of the stripe "John Doe is a 13 year old who likes to ride his skateboard and has a dog named Max!" There is no possibility that by protecting this before recreation for 24 hours we will be cutting off a legitimate article by the poster, and the possibility that coincidentally, an attempt to create an article by the same title about a notable person by a third party will be made during the short time span of protection is vanishingly small.
It plays out like this, some significant percentage of these type of articles are recreated, a newpages patroller needs to visit and tag, warn the user, and then CAT:CSD is expanded by that article, meaning that the same or a new admin must visit the recreated page. This may rinse and repeat a few times before salting occurs. Meanwhile the creator sometimes causes drama far afield because they keep getting these in-their-face warnings (vandalism to the taggers user/talk page for example). And not infrequently, instead of being salted, the creator gets escalating warnings until they are blocked, when salting would have nipped it all in the bud. Meanwhile, the vast majority of these editors who persist in recreation are never heard from again (they do not come back after the 24 hour protection to try again).
I was thinking of just starting to do this, but brought this here on the possibility there is some other good concern that is behind the prohibition. Note again, that we are only speaking of blatant cases.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think immediate no-warning blocks on creators of such articles (along with other vandals and blatantly unconstructive contributors) would be more beneficial. The chances of that person making any positive contribution to WP over the next few hours or days are at least as vanishingly small as the chances of the conincidence you refer to.--Kotniski (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks or the response Kotniski. Blocking new users in this manner would fly in the face of multiple explicit and tacit policies that have long-standing consensus and with which I agree. We only block immediately and without prior warning for extreme bad faith contributions (for example, vicious attack pages on living people). The example new page I posted about in the OP is not even vandalism, though it may be converted to vandalism if it is reposted after warnings. Carpet bombing new users with blocks isn't the answer:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
- Could you clarify? Do you mean you find an A7 page, speedy it, then it comes back later? -Royalguard11(T) 00:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed that is the way of it. It is a cycle that plays out over and over as any admin who does a lot of CAT:CSD patrol can tell you. An article is tagged for speedy deletion-->creator warned-->article deleted-->recreated-->tagged and warned again-->recreated-->tagged and warned again-->recreated and so on, until, somewhere along the way, one of a number of things happens: the creator gives up, the article slips through the cracks, the user is blocked, or the article is salted.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- So can you explain why you want the "article is salted" option to be moved forward, but not the "user is blocked" option? The two changes seem to me to be more or less equivalent in terms of the degree to which they amend current policy. If we can do one, we can do the other (do both, as far as I'm concerned). --Kotniski (talk) 16:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- Blocking a user is in no way equivalent to protecting an article against creation and there certainly isn't an equivalency with respect to the extent they amend policy. The issue I am addressing is, as far as I can tell, one of first impression, directed at one prohibitive line in policy which has no explanation about a subject (creation protection) that wasn't even available until earlier this year. When and when not to block users, by contrast, besides being a divergent subject, is extremely well-defined, long-discussed and there is overwhelming consensus against the actions you proposed above.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- Just for my information, then, since you said you agreed with this consensus, could you explain the reasons for it? I've always found it weird that WP allows itself to be trolled and disrupted to the extent it does; I guessed it was a hangover from some past time when we were more desperate for contributors and had no great problem with vandals. (I'm not opposing your proposal about salting, by the way, just trying to understand why we don't adopt what to me is an equally logical solution.)--Kotniski (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm not totally in the other camp. I hear you. We do have too much leniency for blatant vandalism. A person who replaces the content of an article with fuck doesn't need four warnings before being blocked. But vandalism is very much about intent. That person replacing content with expletives, naughty bits, adding intentionally false information, etc., has malicious intent; we know what they're about immediately. Even some of them reform and become valuable contributors though that's rare. But the person I posted about in the OP hasn't shown us they are a vandal at all (yet)—just (somehow) clueless of that this site is an encyclopedia and what that entails. Many of them can and do get the idea. And many of them are young and may become useful contributors when they grow up a bit if they aren't soured on the site. Blocking such users on sight would create a hostile atmosphere. However, stopping them from recreating an article on a clearly unsuitable topic by preemptively blocking the title stops them in their tracks without the need for any blocking, warnings, all the theatrics. And those who don't try to create the article again won't even know the article is protected against recreation because if they don't try to recreate, they won't get redirected to the screen which says they cannot.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'm don't remember the salting policy changing recently, but I would say that what you describe would qualify. What you describe isn't preemptive. Preemptive would be choosing a random page you think will get created and salting it. If a page is created, deleted, created, deleted, then it would probably qualify for salting at that point. I think after one would be a bit extreme unless it seems to be part of some pattern. I remember it being very common after 3, and you can apply it after 2 in most cases (I can't think of any exception at the moment though). In my opinion it means deleted any way, so it doesn't have to go through any process and CSD is enough. I know that's what I did.
- So I'd say after 3 create-speedy deletes you have the green light to salt. 2 you can probably get away with too. 1 I would tread cautiously. I think you're just misunderstanding what "preemptive" means; it means choosing a title with no history and protecting. Anything with a history would not be preemptive. -Royalguard11(T) 04:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- Before about January of this year we didn't have the ability to protect redlinks. There was a software change which enabled such action. The section on creation protection thus didn't exist before then because the subject wasn't yet born (I actually was the first to add detail on the software change to the policy page). Sure, truly "preemptive" would be salting a title that never existed, deleted or otherwise. What I am using preemptive here to mean is preemptive against recreation In that sense, preemptive is exactly the right word. Anyway, forget whether the word is a misnomer here or not. The point is that the section states that we should only protect where there have been multiple recreations. But that grew out of a time when when we didn't have the ability to easily protect redlinks for short periods of time and when doing so left an article by the title cluttering the encyclopedia, which isn't the case with creation protection. You have echoed back the policy but not addressed the example I gave and why the policy should not be modified for such circumstances.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
- I was talking about what I did when there was no creation protection. I interpret "preemptive" to only apply to pages with no history at all (never been created, deleted, or anything). If preemptive meant anything else, it would forbid the very protection it's talking about. I'm guessing you mean the example at the top there, and I already gave a response. 1st time you just delete, second time you delete and salt (create-protect, whatever you want to call it). I don't believe that we should protect after just one creation because that encompasses every CSD article. We don't semiprotect every time an article gets a little vandalism. We don't create protect every A7/G1 page. If it's recreated, then it's a good idea to create protect. -Royalguard11(T) 05:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- No it does not encompass every CSD article. We are really talking past each other. I took pains to point out that the issue is about a specific subset of articles and only that specific subset which I gave an example of. The example article has no possibility of being recreated with better content that would address the reason for deletion, which we know by context. This would not encompass most A7s or even most G1s. An article that fails to state the subject's importance can be reposted with a better assertion of importance, sources, etc. Some G1s may be a half-formed test, written garbled but amenable to a repost with real content. In either case, it would a very bad idea to create protect these without multiple recreation. Referring to immediate protection of existing articles as an analogous action is even more off topic. This is specific to creation protection of an article created once that is patently improper and by its context, will not be rehabilited in a subsequent posting, and no one else will be trying to create an article by that name so collateral damage is not an issue. You say "1st time you just delete, second time you delete and salt." That isn't even the practice. Usually we wait longer before creation protecting. In any event, you're again echoing what you believe the practice is, without addressing in any way why it should not be varied under the particular circumstances presented.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
Semi-protecting user talk pages
After this discussion on WP:AN, I have add this to the semi-protection section:
User talk pages may be semi-protected only if they are consistently targeted for vandalism, and only if an unprotected subpage is available (and watched) for IP editors who legitimately need to contact the editor in question."
This merely formalizes what is apparently an already-existing practice. If you read the discussion over there, you will see some examples where this is clearly necessary.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 02:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
