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Hyphens after -ly adverbs (rationalised section)

I've moved the content of the two misleadingly titled sections just above down here, so that the topic is treated in one place. Below the existing material, I've posted a more detailed explanation of why the long-standing text should not be anodysed as Anderson has done twice in the past day.

In regard to the question of using a hyphen after an -ly adverb, User:Pmanderson has just informed me that "the question of English usage ... differs between the national varieties of English." The same editor has also changed the wording of Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Hyphens, section 3, point 4. I looked for more information about the matter on this talk page, but found none. If those differences exist, what specifically are they?
-- Wavelength (talk) 05:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Reverted; thanks for alerting us, Wavelength. The reason for the rule is that an -ly adverb clearly flags that it will quality a subsequent verb (usually immediately after). Tony (talk) 14:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

This is why I quote "specially-designed sound cards", where the adverb is not qualifying a verb, but an adjective (here a participle, but it could be any adjective). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

A participle is not an adjective. Ilkali (talk) 00:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

'Tis where I come from, but is there anything more here than a purely verbal argument? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The comment I replied to was predicated on classification of participles as adjectives, which is contrary to mainstream linguistic theory. If the comment in question had a point (and I can't see one), it is defeated by that fact. Ilkali (talk) 17:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Citation please. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The old wording encouraged, indeed mandated, the dehyphenation of compound adjectives, such as specially-designed sound cards. These are being "corrected" by a single-purpose account, who gives little scope for the use of the hyphen here in avoiding ambiguity, and none to the difference in this respect between American and British English.

He is also finding his instances by searching on ly-. This is a recipe for bad writing; although I have to admit it could be worse; he could be using a bot.

I think nothing more is needed here than a toning down; and have done so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see User:David Kernow/Internet sources re hyphens and adverbs,

which includes American, British, and Canadian sources.

(By the way, mine is not a single-purpose account, but that is irrelevant anyway.)

If "specially-designed" is a compound adjective,

then "the-quick-brown-fox" is a compound noun,

and "jumps-over" is a compound verb,

and "the-lazy-dog" is another compound noun.

If "specially designed sound cards" is ambiguous,

then a disambiguation here would be helpful,

because I can see only one possible interpretation.

-- Wavelength (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Response by Tony1: I've reverted Anderson's second attempt to dilute into meaninglessness a useful guideline in MOS that I believe has improved the readability of WP's article text. I've received a substantial email on the matter from User:Noetica, who is on an extended Wikibreak, but noticed Anderson's edits. Noetica writes:

"I subscribe to the Chicago Manual of Style online (recommended). Here is the Chicago ruling:

5.93 There are exceptions for hyphenating phrasal adjectives: (1) If the phrasal adjective follows a verb, it is usually unhyphenated—for example, compare a well-trained athlete with an athlete who is well trained. (2) When a proper name begins a phrasal adjective, the name is not hyphenated {the Monty Python school of comedy}. (3) A two-word phrasal adjective that begins with an adverb ending in ly is not hyphenated {a sharply worded reprimand} (but a not-so-sharply-worded reprimand).

Absolutely definitive, confidently prescriptive, and in accord with our long-standing text. Other guides issue much the same edict."

Anderson, please stop trying to impose your anti-centralist, do-as-you-please agenda on our style guides by anodyning its guidance bit by bit.Tony (talk) 08:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

In general, CMOS is a hasty piece of shorthand for writers and editors in a hurry. We are not; we can afford to be prescriptive only when English usage is without exception. (And in fact, we omit most such points, because we don't need to specify them; when English usage is genuinely without exception, it's not controversial here also.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• I deeply regret and oppose the attitude that guidelines must be prescriptive; they can simply guide, as the other clauses in the same section do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• • I'm beginning to think Tony and PMA are using different definitions of "prescriptive". Perhaps they'd care to elaborate their intended meanings for the term in the above, because to my reading the CMOS quote above is more descriptive than prescriptive. LeadSongDog (talk) 20:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• Also, hyphenation is here, as elsewhere, more common in British than American. CMOS is a guide to American English, and does not have WP:ENGVAR. I will try another draft. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

[Please do not insert comments within this post, but respond after it.-N]

PMAnderson, you flagged the guideline concerning ly-adverb modifiers as disputed. The way you did it disrupted the markup and the numeration. If you re-apply a dispute tag, check the effects of doing so. Otherwise you gratuitously blemish a page consulted by well over a thousand people a day. While you do such checking, take the time to read the section you are tinkering with. The section on hyphens includes the following proviso:

• Hyphenation involves many subtleties that cannot be covered here; the rules and examples presented above illustrate the broad principles that inform current usage.

I have not joined in discussion here for ages. Nor have I edited the page for many months, though I have been one of its most prolific editors, if the statistics are to be believed. The reason? I thought progress was impossible beyond a certain level, because editors like you, PMA, stood doggedly against MOS as a genuine corpus of guidelines. You just don't seem to be able to separate the issues. Every style guide must guide. Every style guide adopts a prescriptive tone. That is its virtue, and its reason for being. That is what people value in it, and why we get our thousand hits a day (even after allowing for the activity of MOS editors themselves). We disappoint those who come here for guidance, if we offer only bland nullities. Don't tell them this, for example: "The hyphen may be omitted after an -ly adverb"! That will license text like this: "we had a really-good time". Tell them what all major guides tell them. That's what the current text does perfectly well:

• A hyphen is not used after an -ly adverb (wholly owned subsidiary) unless part of a larger compound (a slowly-but-surely strategy).

And don't purvey such unsupported conceits as this, to a readership of one thousand a day:

• A hyphen is generally not used after an -ly adverb (wholly owned subsidiary) unless part of a larger compound (a slowly-but-surely strategy); sometimes, especially in British English, a hyphen may be used to clarify exactly what the adverb modifies.

Almost worthless. Can you even cite any authority for that assertion about British English? I have surveyed many style guides, and not one says anything like that. I don't approve of everything CMOS says, but the guides are pretty well unanimous concerning ly-adverbs and hyphens. Find one that contradicts our current guideline. In fact, ours is more complete than most, since it includes the most important kind of exception (a slowly-but-surely strategy). There are other exceptions sanctioned implicitly by some authorities; I know about them, through my extensive investigations. But you have not identified them, and you have not brought to this discussion any respected guide that so much as hints at them. Can you do that? I doubt it! And even if you could, such a source would have to be weighed against the united voice of the American CMOS, the British New Hart's Rules, and the other guides that I could cite.

If this matter did not affect the convenience of one thousand readers a day, I would have simply stayed away in graceful retirement, PMAnderson. Ever tried graceful retirement? Think it over. I thoroughly recommend it, for the new perspective and tranquillity it affords on old issues one has cared too closely about. But I cannot stand by, leaving Tony to struggle alone against such unreflective and obtuse depredations.

MOS cannot function at its best if it is not allowed to guide. It must not be a draconian imposition on editors, and it is not; but to guide, it must answer the questions that people bring to it. The thousand a day are looking for a concrete prescription, not the vapid deliverances of Desiderata.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes; it is part of Fowler's discussion of hyphens. (He does not prescribe for American.) The old wording, sans exceptions, is being used to justify bot-like removal of hyphens in this construct, even when they are grammatical and do add to clarity, despite the catchall sentence. When moderate wording indicating that hyphens can occur in this construction, although they normally do not, is agreed upon, the tag certainly can and should go. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

• I do not understand the claim that the tag disrupts the numbering. On my system, the only things actually numbered in WP:HYPHEN are the three main subsections, and they are numbered 1, 2, and 3. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
• I have stated the example that annoyed me, and it was not "really-good time". I am very tired of having red herrings dragged across MOS to defend it every time it says something stupid. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

PMA, the tag is designed to be placed at the top of a section, as its wording suggests. With some browsers (like recent versions of Mozilla Firefox) it interferes with the display of subsequent text if it is used irregularly. As for a really-good time, it is no red herring. You continue to avoid the issue. The wording you had proposed does not rule out such errors; the wording you attempted to replace did rule them out. That is why our MOS, along with every other major style guide, gives such a guideline. As for Fowler's, note first that it is not a style guide. Then I must ask: Which edition are you talking about? What does it say, exactly? Why should the fact that it typically does not address American English warrant our saying, to well over one thousand readers a day, anything at all about differences across the Atlantic concerning these compound ly-adverb premodifiers?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 01:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the old language ruled out much that was undesirable, it also ruled out much that was desirable; that's what was wrong with it. See Type I and Type II errors. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I personally find adverbly-adjective constructions acceptable, but I recognise the value of conventions and adamantly object to Pmanderson's constant attempts to erode the MoS. In this case, his proposed alternative is no better than having no text at all. I am in favor of the original wording. Ilkali (talk) 00:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Then you agree on the point at issue. Why should we insist on something which is not English? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If I may presume to give the obvious answer on Ilkali's behalf, he prefers this uniformity (which is a perfectly serviceable approximation for all purposes) to insisting on his own preferences. He works toward the greater good. (Many of us do that, PMA. Take note.) In this case, the greater good is a style guide that actually guides. I don't know that Ilkali accepts a really-good time and the like; but he seems to want to give hundreds of thousands of Wikipedians each year access to a ruling that will keep us from becoming a laughing stock.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 01:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't, of course, accept a really-good time. What I should've said is that I generally find it acceptable to hyphenate -ly adverbs with past participles, but there are probably some exceptions. Likewise, there may be instances of hyphenating with simple adjectives that I find acceptable, despite really-good being aberrant. Without some way to concisely articulate my intuitions, and without any indication that others share those intuitions, I'm happy to accept a simple rule that sometimes excludes constructions I would accept, but reliably excludes ones we'd all reject. Ilkali (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

[Further amendment: I am obviously in verbal mode today, not numerical. I have again amended all of my references to the number of people consulting WP:MOS. It is in fact around 2,000 per day. After allowing for hits from MOS-editors themselves, the conservative figure is still well over a thousand users per day seeking a ruling on style.–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 05:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)]

That still offers a wide scope for interpretation. Indeed, I would hope that many looked to see what this page said, and had better sense than to treat what they found as a ruling; and of those who sought "rulings", perhaps half-a-dozen looked at any given sentence (perhaps one; we cannot tell how many passed through on their way to subpages). Your language shows what is wrong with MOS: we are not a race of kings. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Please don't pretend we agree, PMan. As Noetica suggests, the difference between us is that I am willing to discard my personal sensibilities in support of something universally beneficial, such as the clarity and unequivocality of the text you want to replace. "Not English"? Absolute drivel. Is specially designed sound card "not English"? Ilkali (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Very well, we do not agree. You speak as a disciple of Carlyle and Lord Shang: Nothing is useful, except a direct unconditional order. Actually describing the English language is of secondary importance, if any. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

At this point, I have tried four different wordings in a search for compromise. Is there any reason, other than this "we must speak prescriptively" argument, why we should not say, as the other clauses do, that hyphens are not normally used after -ly? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Reasons have already been given. Do you accept that, for any hyphenated form excluded by the original guideline, the unhyphenated equivalent is legitimate English? Do you accept that your version of the guideline permits illegitimate English? Ilkali (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Diff for the reasons, please. As for these questions: no, I do not accept that "specially designed sound cards" is good English; if sound were a true adjective, rather than an attributive, it would be worse still. Nor do I accept that "normally" permits illegitimate English, any more than the normally in the following clause: A hyphen is normally used when the adverb well precedes a participle used attributively (a well-meaning gesture; but normally a very well managed firm, since well itself is modified); and even predicatively, if well is necessary to, or alters, the sense of the adjective rather than simply intensifying it (the gesture was well-meaning, the child was well-behaved, but the floor was well polished). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

"no, I do not accept that "specially designed sound cards" is good English". Well, I don't know what to tell you other than that the purpose of the MoS isn't to license all of your personal preferences. Ilkali (talk) 03:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Style guides are by nature prescriptive. If you wish to abolish the MoS, kindly approach the matter directly and overtly rather than trying to disassemble the document one piece at a time. Ilkali (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not wish to abolish MOS; that is my next to last choice. But you are mistaken: style guides are not by nature prescriptive; they are descriptive, and advisory: They describe what English does, and recommend between the available choices, giving what reasons there may be for each. As an example, I quote the text for the second section of WP:HYPHEN.

There is a clear trend, not yet complete, to join both elements in all varieties of English (subsection, nonlinear), particularly in North America. British English tends to hyphenate when the letters brought into contact are the same (non-negotiable, sub-basement) or are vowels (pre-industrial), or where a word is uncommon (co-proposed, re-target) or may be misread (sub-era, not subera). North American English reflects the same factors, but tends strongly to close up without a hyphen when possible. Consult a good dictionary, and see WP:ENGVAR.

That offers facts and advice, which varies by national dialect. It makes no command, except the inarguable one to consult a dictionary, but it guides the reader all the same. If there were compilations of punctuation comparable to dictionaries, we would recommend that they be consulted for the rest of this paragraph. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

According to What Is Grammar - Descriptive and Prescriptive Grammar,

By their nature, all popular style and usage guides are prescriptive, though to varying degrees: some are fairly tolerant of deviations from standard English; others can be downright cranky. The most irascible critics are sometimes called "the Grammar Police."

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

By searching on the web, one may find almost any set of keywords; it helps, however, to read the text found and see what it actually says. This is addressing, as may be plainly seen, the opposite issue: whether a style guide should tolerate "deviations from standard English". That is not what is in question here: Ilkali and Wavelength are demanding that MOS forbid a usage that is standard English, and which is sometimes clearer and less ambiguous than the alternative. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

"style guides are not by nature prescriptive; they are descriptive, and advisory". Welcome to contradiction theatre, folks. Ilkali (talk) 03:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You can find information about web pages linking to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style,

at Site Explorer - Search Results.

-- Wavelength (talk) 07:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Most of which appear to be WP pages, either subpages of MOS or pages with such tags as {{duplication}} or {{cleanup}}. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see Site Explorer - Search Results "Except from this subdomain"

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Does Wavelength look at search results before posting them? That list begins with a wikimedia user page, continues with Wedding, then on to es:Wikipedia:Manual de estilo. This at least has found some results which are not WP and its sister projects, mostly one Stephen Downes' blog, but is there a point here? (Aside from the question of whether {{rewrite}} should redirect here; the objections at Wedding are not MOS concerns.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:10, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Above the list of links, you can see the number of links. At the bottom right corner of the page, you can click to see subsequent pages of the list of links. The distinction here between Wikipedia pages and non-Wikipedia pages is of minor importance. Even links to the project page from other Wikipedia pages are an indication of the importance of the project page. The main point here is to show the importance of the page by the number of pages linking to it, and thereby to supplement what Noetica said about the number of times the project page has been viewed. -- Wavelength (talk) 07:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This has gone on far too long. If Anderson were able to present any evidence for the claim that he is now reduced to (inclusion of the word normally), we might have settled things earlier. He has referred us only to Fowler's. Which version, I asked earlier? No response! Fowler's does not, despite Anderson's assertion, deliver anything relevant to ly-adverbs that would support his case. Since Anderson cannot do or refuses to do the necessary work, I will. Garner's Modern American Usage (Bryan A Garner, OUP, USA; 2nd edition 2003, 928 pages) is a meticulous and authoritatively prescriptive work, at ease with its role and enormously well received by a wide readership. Garner devotes seven dense columns of text to phrasal adjectives. His essential message? Use hyphens. He begins with a general rule:

A. General Rule. When a phrase functions as an adjective preceding the noun it modifies [...] the phrase should ordinarily be hyphenated. [...] Most professional writers know this; most nonprofessionals don't. (p. 604)

This is followed by the solid reasons for such a practice, and long lists of examples. Then this (with my underlining):

Some guides might suggest that you should make a case-by-case decision, based on whether a misreading is likely. You're better off with a flat rule (with a few exceptions noted below) because almost all sentences with unhyphenated phrasal adjectives will be misread by someone. (p. 605)

Then follow illustrations of what can happen when hyphens are omitted. And last, the exceptions referred to. Only one of these is relevant to the guideline we are discussing:

B. Exception for -ly Adverbs. When a phrasal adjective begins with an adverb ending in -ly, the convention is to drop the hyphen [...example...]. But if the -ly adverb is part of a longer phrase, then the hyphen is mandatory (the not-so-hotly-contested race).

That's it. Nothing more to be said that's relevant to our guideline. No qualification with normally, no sometimes, no British do this but we do that. After establishing the baseline assumption that hyphens are generally to be used in phrasal adjectives, and listing several dozen examples to reinforce that assumption, Garner finds only one class of phrasal adjectives with -ly that calls for a hyphen; and that is exactly the class that we mention. CMOS, New Hart's, and all other major style guides agree. If they mention any exception at all, they mention that same exception. Now, I am aware of further considerations, and certain very particular sorts of further exceptions that no style guide I have seen addresses. But I don't think they amount to much, and I have no more time to devote to this exercise. Anderson should now accept that the weight of almost all who write in this field is against him, and that he has no body of support here. I have removed the attenuated qualification with normally that he inserted, pre-empting discussion here. And I have removed the dispute tag, for such an ill-founded and one-sided assault on our plain, useful, and perfectly justified wording. Let him waste our time no longer, without bringing detailed argument and evidence to the table. This has been a serious imposition on my time, and on the patience and time of many others here.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Dispute tags

I have once again removed a dispute tag that was improperly applied in the middle of the section. See my edit summary. The edit appears anonymous because of a local system glitch. (I am not at my usual location.)–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, there is no question that there is a dispute in the section. If the dispute tag cannot be next to the disputed statement, it should be at the beginning of the section. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please no, it makes people think that the whole section is in dispute. Better to leave the tag out completely - it serves no purpose except to half-direct people to what independent observers will conclude, sadly, is a very lame discussion.--Kotniski (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. There is a legitimate dispute. If there's no way to tag just the disputed statement as disputed, the tag is necessary for the article to be a legitimate guideline. The alternative, I suppose, is to use the disputed guideline tag at the top; which we'd both like even less. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

We don't insert dispute tags every time someone disagrees with part of the article. Is there some reason the tag is appropriate for this issue but not any of the others being discussed on this page? Ilkali (talk) 18:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Template messages/Disputes.

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Or more relevantly perhaps, Wikipedia:Template messages/Wikipedia namespace.--Kotniski (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course there is no reason to flag this particular section as disputed any more than the others. These disputes over dispute tags are becoming tiresome and disruptive - let's remember that guideline pages are not private battlegrounds, but are intended to be read by editors, who don't know what to make of a section that has a red question mark at the top (particularly misleading when the dispute is only over one insignificant detail of a large section; and the tag is added without even using the parameter that takes people to the relevant talk page discussion). Rather than continue battling the issue out here, I've tried to formulate some guidance for use of such tags, or rather to clarify and expand what was already written at WP:Policies and guidelines. Please comment on that talk page on my recent changes there. Of course I'm not saying anything I wrote there is applicable (anyone's perfectly entitled to slap a disputed tag on that), but I think it would currently imply that the correct solution in this situation is no tag or, if people really think it's useful, an {{underdiscussion}} tag, with the talk page discussion section noted.--Kotniski (talk) 19:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I am sympathetic to both sides here, and the general question needs to be discussed elsewhere; so thanks to Kotniski. In the present case, the tag disrupts markup if placed exactly where it is relevant, but if placed at the beginning of the whole section its scope is misrepresented. Luckily, the dispute has now diminished to exclusion or inclusion of the single word normally. No user of WP:MOS will be misled or inconvenienced by the tag's absence; but some might be by its presence. Accordingly, I am removing the tag. Let anyone reinstating it give a justification that counters the reason I have just articulated.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

This discussion would not have begun if the absence of normally, or some such qualifying phrase, were not itself inconveniencing users of the encyclopedia. An irresponsible editor is taking its absence as an excuse to remove useful hyphens. Pleading the disputed clause as a justification for this form of vandalism should be more difficult if this tag remains. An in-line tag, like {{dubious}}, would be ideal, but I'm not sure one exists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

"An irresponsible editor is taking its absence as an excuse to remove useful hyphens". At the moment this can't be taken as anything more than a single person's opinion. If nobody else agrees, there is no consensus either to make the change you suggest or to mark the section as disputed. Ilkali (talk) 16:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a repetition of part of a post which I made at 22:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC).

If "specially designed sound cards" is ambiguous,

then a disambiguation here would be helpful,

because I can see only one possible interpretation.

-- Wavelength (talk) 17:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Is that supposed to be a poem? But on the question of the tag and the section's wording, can we all eat our tea if we include "normally" (like it makes any difference) and omit the (clearly misleading) section tag?--Kotniski (talk) 20:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not intend it to be a poem. I put each clause on a separate line, to make the sentence easier to read. I am still waiting for PMAnderson to disambiguate the expression, and to explain how a hyphen after "specially" makes a difference.

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Paragraph 4 of Electric guitar#Sound and effects contains the expression "specially-designed sound cards" [sic]. I removed the hyphen at 23:33, 10 November 2008, but it was restored at 23:38, 11 November 2008. If I remove it now, do I have the support of the Manual of Style (with the inclusion of the word "normally" in the relevant guideline)?

-- Wavelength (talk) 04:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless it is, as I would hold it to be, one of the abnormal hyphens which does clarify: in this case, by indicating that "specially designed" acts as a unit in modifying "sound cards". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Wavelength - at least, until you can tell me what other interpretation you can put on that phrase that we've so far missed.--Kotniski (talk) 07:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• Manderson, all style guides are bound to be both descriptive and prescriptive. Now, tell me, as a child were you thrashed regularly by your father for disobedience? I'm trying to work out exactly why you have such a bee in your bonnet about rules. Tony (talk) 00:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
  • No, actually. Were you? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Since PManderson has just reintroduced the dispute tags, I feel I have to ask: PMan, in what circumstances would you drop the issue and cease edit-warring over the tags and the wording? Clearly it's not enough that you've faced near-unanimous opposition. What more do you need? Ilkali (talk) 18:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

An acknowledgment that "is not hyphenated" is false; I will settle for "is not normally hyphenated" and would consider stronger language (I can't think of any, or I would have suggested it); simply enough to discourage the automatic "correction" of wholly-owned, especially in articles in British English, where it is plainly usage, and may be predominant usage. We are not here to invent a new language, but to guide editors through the existing one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I asked what it would take for you to drop the issue. Am I to take from your answer that you will continue edit-warring until you get your way? Ilkali (talk) 18:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Evidence that the English language is not as I understand it. Consensus does not justify the assertion of undocumented falsehood. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

So you will ignore the opinions of all other editors and continue edit-warring until you are convinced that you are wrong? Ilkali (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Andersen et al. have done enough to show that this rule is not an absolute in good English writing. Let's remove the dispute tags that deface the whole section over this one trivial point, include "normally" as Andersen suggests, and (if anyone considers it important enough) try and find some more pertinent examples that illustrate the use and non-use of hyphens in this situation.--Kotniski (talk) 19:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You're entitled to think that (and it's why I said "near-unanimous"), but it doesn't answer my question.

Again, PManderson: Are you resolved to edit-war over this until you get your way, ignoring the opinions of any editors who disagree with you? Ilkali (talk) 13:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I give limited weight to opinions which insist upon language which is demonstrably contrary to reliable sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Explaining hyphens after -ly

Since a literate editor like Kotniski is puzzled by what seems clear to me about "the specially-designed sound cards", let me compare with "really-good time".

• "really good time" and "good time" are both meaningful, and mean much the same thing with different force; really modifies good only and directly.
• But "the designed sound cards" does not mean at all the same thing as "the specially-designed sound cards"; indeed, "designed" is a piece of mush which an editor should remove or recast. Grammaticé, "specially-designed" as a whole modifies cards - this is marked by the hyphen; omitting the hyphen will tend to trip the reader by making xem parse the clumsy phrase "the designed sound cards" first. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, -ly means already that the qualified word is coming, usually immediately. A hyphen is redundant, and indeed obstructs. You need another thrashing, Anderson. Tony (talk) 09:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have attempted to draw a parse tree for the noun phrase "specially designed sound cards".
The periods have no meaning in the diagram; I put them there to help with the display.
The word "designed" looks like a verb in the past tense, but here it is a participial adjective.
The word "sound" looks like a noun, but here it is a noun adjunct.
For comparison, I have also shown "very good style guides", which has a similar parse tree.

                      Noun phrase
             ______________|_____________
             |                          |
    Adjectival phrase               Noun phrase
     |            |                 |         |
  Adverb      Adjective         Adjective    Noun
     |            |                 |         |
 specially     designed           sound     cards
   very          good             style     guides

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course, designed is a (passive) participle, and sound is in adjunction, but a sentence has more than cladistics: very and good form a different sort of adjectival phrase than specially and designed; as removing the adverbs will show. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not know what you mean by "cladistics"; most references give a biological meaning.

Please see cladistics - OneLook Dictionary Search.

I am still analyzing what you said about removing the adverbs. I have revised the parse tree.

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(to Sept, primarily) I think we see the difference, but still I don't see the need for the hyphen to assist parsing in one case but not the other - the parse tree shows that the two sentences need to be parsed in the same way. Indeed the example given in the MOS - "wholly owned subsidiary" - which you seemed to leave unaltered when you edited the section - is one of the kind which you now seem to be claiming can use a hyphen.--Kotniski (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

"Wholly-owned" probably should be hyphenated, insofar as it is British English; I missed it. Reading with an American accent, I suspect; thanks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

When I am reading "PCs with specially designed sound cards" (as in paragraph 4 of Electric guitar#Sound and effects), I am reading in a forward direction, from left to right. After I read the adverb "specially" I anticipate an adjective to follow. It could be a passive participial adjective such as "designed". It could be an active participial adjective such as "functioning". It could be a non-participial adjective such as "strong". In this example, I read "specially designed". Then I read the word "sound". If there is any temporary "tripping" by the string "specially designed sound" (if I analyze "designed" as modifying "sound", with "sound" as the head of "specially designed sound"), it is soon corrected when I read the next word ("cards"). Then I immediately understand "specially designed sound cards" as a correctly parsed noun phrase.

-- Wavelength (talk) 00:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

• The taxonomy above is nested in the type of traditional grammar that teaches no one to write well (although is possibly useful in the early stages of learning Eng. as a second language). For example, epithets and classifiers are both tagged as adjectives, whereas their grammatical roles are quite different. See Halliday. Tony (talk) 00:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the reference to Halliday. To me, this is new and interesting. I have skimmed the following articles: Traditional grammar, Michael Halliday, Systemic functional grammar, Epithet, Classifier (linguistics), and Taxonomy.

I found this statement at Traditional grammar#The role of "traditional grammar":

The main benefit of "traditional grammar" is that it gives learners a basic understanding of the building blocks of language, which can help in improving their writing skills.

-- Wavelength (talk) 04:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I see that Cole has been running around changing the "discussion" tags at the three style guides relevant to the dates issue back to "disputed". In addition, he has been spattering the talk pages of numerous users with a threatening message about their work in improving the date formatting of the project. I ask that he calm down and look clearly at the issues rather than pursue this frenzied campaign against hard-working editors. Tony (talk) 03:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Response to Wavelength on the taxonomy: I agree that for second-language learners, trad. grammar word classes are probably essential. But they are sadly inadequate—and often misleading—when it comes to the underlying complexities of the grammar, and hardly ever improve written and oral skills. As a matter of interest, in Halliday's SFG (systemic functional grammar), "good" is an interpersonal epithet (I'm convincing you of my attitude towards the style guide), and "sound" is a classifier (in this sense, you can't say that they're very sound cards—it's a cut-and-dried category of card, e.g., not a playing card). "Style" is ambiguous, since it might be said to have merged into "guides", and is indeed merged by some writers into a compound word. If not merged, it's a classifier. "Stylish" would be a plain epithet.

You may wish to have a look at nominal group, which has direct relevance to this taxonomic exercise. The concept and application of nominal groups are probably more important in English than any other language: ours is a very highly nominalised language, which is one reason it's so good for scientific and technical writing, where Things are so important. Another taste of SFG is the short article on thematic equative, another important feature of English grammar (trad. grammar calls it a cleft something or other, but is rather wobbly—superficial, actually—WRT its grammatical function). A Swedish client has objected to my claim that English may be the only language to have such a grammatical feature; I'm not convinced that he's right, but the question is open. Tony (talk) 04:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It gladdens my heart to see this surge of elevated linguistic analysis at our normally pedestrian talkpage. But let us not lose sight of a salient fact: nothing has been said to support any weakening of this guideline:

* A hyphen is not used after an -ly adverb (wholly owned subsidiary) unless part of a larger compound (a slowly-but-surely strategy).

Even if something above does count as evidence supporting change, there is still no consensus to diverge from the unanimity of major style guides. PMAnderson has twice attempted to smuggle the word normal into the guideline, with these edits: [1] and [2]. Each time he concealed the change with an edit summary that masked the change, and misled editors who were patiently discussing the matter with him. Clearly this editor does not really like the idea of discussion and consensus-building. Add to this his reluctance to produce, when challenged, evidence that he claims exists (from Fowler's, which I have checked in every one of its major editions).

MOS should not surrender to this relentless death of a thousand pin-pricks. Anderson would do better to study MOS and learn what it actually says – and perhaps get up to date with developments since the decline and fall of his mentor Edward Gibbon (see Anderson's self-inflating reference, above below [where many a true word was spoken in ironic jest]–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 13:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)). For example, he might learn to avoid mistakes and misrepresentations like this one.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• Only one style guide has been cited; unanimity usually requires at least two minds to unite.
• The OED and all three of its quotations hyphenate wholly-owned subsidiary (wholly adv. def 3). That should trump an inference from CMOS 's brevity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In the interest of a balanced debate, we might hope that you will eventually get something right, Anderson. For a start, two serious and respected authorities have been cited against you: Garner's and CMOS. And I can cite more. Would you like me to do that? Fine: I'll give two further authorities for every one that you can adduce – starting with your first, please.

Meanwhile, OED does not rule on these matters of hyphenation. In fact it scarcely remarks on them at all, and does not, in its catholicity, care one way or the other (as we, with our altogether different brief, must). It is sheer luck that its examples for wholly-owned are hyphenated. Other occurrences in its citations have wholly owned unhyphenated and without comment (see entries for "network, n." and "refinance, v."). To see how little OED cares about hyphenation, look at this from its entry for "made, ppl. a."

[III. 8.] b. With adv. (or sometimes adj.) giving the sense ‘made in a certain manner, having a certain quality or kind of make’, as in badly-, neatly-, well-made; often with reference to the ‘make’ or ‘build’ of the body (= -built), as in loosely-, powerfully-, stoutly-, strong(ly)-made. Most of these combs. are treated under their first element, or in their alphabetical place as Main words.

Very well; but when we look for these words under their first elements, or as main words, we find only one of the combinations mentioned cited with a hyphen! (Stoutly-made, cited at "stoutly, adv." and "standard, n. (a.)": both from the same source dated 1833.) In fact OED has many combinations with ly-; but that is entirely predictable, given its universal and historical scope.

I am again reverting your unilateral tinkering, Anderson. You are fumbling badly with this, and we shouldn't have to bear the consequences. You wanted discussion? You have had it. No one has supported any of your desperate attempts to sabotage a perfectly sound guideline. I wish we could move on; this is wasting so much precious time.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 04:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Lynne Truss writes that the OED used to say anyone who took hyphens seriously would go mad, and that Churchill's rule was to avoid them at all costs. PMA, they're intended only to aid understanding. Truss gives the example of the pickled-herring merchant, someone who sells pickled herrings, rather than the pickled herring merchant, someone who sells herrings and is drunk.

Where they're not aiding understanding, they're not needed. When you're dealing with an adverb, "ly" is the hyphen, as it were, in that it signals that it's about to qualify a verb. There's no need to signal that twice. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 05:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Anderson, there's only one thing worse than omitting a sorely needed hyphen: inserting a redundant one. This is what you want to promote, apparently. Noetica is right: move on, please. Tony (talk) 05:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

• "Wholly-owned subsidiary" - so written - is a legal term in the UK, defined in S 1159 of the Companies Act 2006[3]. I find the onjections to making this an ENGVAR matter mysterious. Johnbod (talk) 09:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you indeed, Johnbod? Then cite the non-American authority on style that agrees with this hyphenation, as a systematic feature of practice. It is not in New Hart's Rules, Complete Plain Words (3rd edition), Cambridge Guide to English Usage, Ridout and Witting's The Facts of English, or Australia's AGPS Style Manual, all of which are squarely in accord with our current guideline. Nor is your exception given in Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, which is an alphabetic list of special cases. Yes, there are some spellings in some British usage that disagree with our guideline, and these are pointed to here and there in some books. The world is wide and various. For example, British dictionaries typically spell newlywed optionally with a hyphen. Are we to list all such curiosities? Are we to clutter our guideline by accommodating exceptions ignored by other major guidelines – American, British, and Australian? We could. In fact, I have prepared a draft that makes sense of all this, and explains certain exceptions. But I don't propose it, because our present guideline is industry-standard and uncomplicated. That is the special virtue of a good guideline!

Once more I should draw attention to a line in our section on hyphens, since no one else in this discussion seems to have taken note of it:

• Hyphenation involves many subtleties that cannot be covered here; the rules and examples presented above illustrate the broad principles that inform current usage.

That certainly is adequate to cover the odd sort of case that you and Anderson raise. I understand your point, and your contribution to these long deliberations. Anderson's case is different: he attempts to foist successive variations on us, under cover of misleading edit summaries, and will not relinquish his stand no matter what weight of opinion or evidence is laid out plainly before him.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 13:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If "wholly-owned subsidiary" is enshrined in UK law, though, we should at least find a different example to replace it in the MoS.--Kotniski (talk) 13:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Anderson, it's not a joke or game, and the MoS is not your private plaything; everyone sees your antics as tiresome and disruptive. It's time to stop now, and to start making constructive contributions. Your silly contrarian tactics undermine any semblance of authority you might have had. Try to learn from highly skilled writers like Noetica and Kotniski, please. Tony (talk) 15:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

MOS should not be a joke or a game; but it is both. As long as handfuls of language cranks set up rules they are quoting out of context, have misunderstood, or have invented, and broadcast them all over Wikipedia, contrary to English usage or some major variant of it, it will continue to be a joke - or, rather, it would be one if it did not do so much harm both to the civility and to the text of Wikipedia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

As for this matter, which is almost as arbitrary, and fully as silly as "Mebibyte", I present below a quote from the Second Edition of the OED. A hyphen is not used after an -ly adverb (wholly owned subsidiary) has the disadvantage of being false; it is at best an unacknowledged and unfounded exception to ENGVAR, which has genuine consensus, unlike this invention.

Wholly

....

3' Comb.: wholly-owned a., applied to a company all of whose shares are owned by another company.

1964 Financial Times 11 Feb. 12/1 The directors..have decided to give the holders of Ordinary shares the opportunity of acquiring an interest in the wholly-owned subsidiary. 1972 Accountant 21 Sept. 360/1 The UK company is a subsidiaryalthough not wholly-owned. 1976 Scotsman 20 Nov. 3/2 The plan is recommended by the boards of all the companies, who will become wholly-owned subsidiaries of the new Malaysian group.

Obsrerve all three quotations; last I heard the FT had a style guide. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

As for SV's citations of anyone who took hyphens seriously would go mad and they're intended only to aid understanding, I agree with both; we would have a better section if all the subordinate bullet points under WP:HYPHEN 3 were replaced by that language. The only good I expect from MOS is to get out of the way of an editor who hyphenates for clarity - or does not hyphenate for clarity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Anderson, I have already dealt with the OED case that you quote at length, and shown that elsewhere OED cites examples with wholly owned (no apostrophe). You have utterly ignored my painstaking analysis. Let me make it clear once again: OED rarely concerns itself with matters of hyphenation. In the case of made, to give the example once again, it presents a number of compounds with hyphens: loosely-, powerfully-, stoutly-, strongly-. But this is only for expository convenience in lexicography. The dictionary is founded on citations; but in fact, only one of these very compounds is cited in examples: stoutly-made, twice in different articles, from the same 1833 [sic] source. In fact, strongly made occurs in nine OED entries, but each time without a hyphen. So much for how OED presents phrases with hyphens, outside of its citation texts. It even uses strongly made in its own definitions, for example at the entry "strong-box".

OED goes about its monumental work of recording the rich chaotic variety of our language, but style guides do not have the same brief. CMOS, New Hart's, and the others I refer to above (and more!) offer straight guidance to help editors and writers confronting hard choices. The guides I cite are unanimous on the point we are discussing. And in fact, with our wording we help more than some: not all guides show compounds like a slowly-but-surely strategy.

The fact that a phrase turns up in OED is not compelling, for style guides. Nor does its fixed technical use in UK statute law. It is easy to see why, in special circumstances, special treatment of these phrases will occur. I remind editors a third time that we have long included this proviso:

• Hyphenation involves many subtleties that cannot be covered here; the rules and examples presented above illustrate the broad principles that inform current usage.

Given this proviso, and given our brief to guide rather than minutely govern choices in writing at Wikipedia, the wording we have is perfectly adequate. If we qualify this guideline with its own normally, where a general qualification is already in place, we weaken the guidance and make it harder for editors to be sure how robust this particular provision might be. In fact, the present formulation is very robust: close to unanimously endorsed by style guides, regardless of practice in the drafting of UK statutes and regardless of the quite different imperatives under which OED operates.

Now, as I have revealed, I have a draft that is more complex and less like the standard that is accepted by almost all guides. I am not absolutely against a more complex guideline! But so far, Anderson has given only feeble reasons for pusillanimous changes, some of which he attempts to introduce by stealth under misleading edit summaries. That we should resist. His attacks have gone on for too long. If he used evidence, if he offered cogent arguments (and responded to cogent arguments!), the case would be different.

I might accept normally if it were not the result of such a flawed process of deliberation here. I would accept a different example than wholly owned subsidiary; but I note that to avoid this example is to avoid guiding exactly where an editor will want guidance. It is hard cases that bring editors to MOS for help, and hard cases that we must therefore address. We can do that briefly (which we do perfectly well already, with the general qualification that I have now exhibited here three times); or we can do it at length. But we should not do it weakly, and we should not do it without genuinely guiding practice.

Anderson, you reveal this about yourself:

The only good I expect from MOS is to get out of the way of an editor who hyphenates for clarity - or does not hyphenate for clarity.

But such an editor does not write in isolation; in this community an editor's work is subject to review and improvement, with rational discourse back and forth. To help that editing, that review and improvement, and that discourse, we offer guidance. Please stop your campaign aimed at ensuring that MOS is only ever "out of the way"!

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, MOS could do a great deal better than stay out of the way; but it is clear that it will not be. In the meantime, a statement which is factually incorrect is not atoned for by a qualifier in a different paragraph; we all know that MOS is usually consulted and quoted out of context. I am prepared to adopt any solution which satisfies these criteria, but I am fresh out of suggestions. Since I agree that a tag at the head of the section is imprecise for a problem with a single clause, I will be restoring the {{dubious}}. Kotniski, do you have any further suggestions? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I do not contend that wholly-owned is the only British usage, but it is plainly a legitimate one; doubly so if it is the term of art in the law. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't come here mouthing half-truths about factual correctness, Anderson. Not with your record! Concerning the Financial Times, you write "last I heard the FT had a style guide". O really? If they do have one, it is no "authority" for hyphenation in the phrases we are considering. Some recent snips from FT:

• a licence to apply to open wholly owned units in the country [10 September 2008]
• two employees of his wholly-owned EasyGroup [16 November 2008]
• Sir Stelios's wholly-owned Cayman Islands registered EasyGroup [whew! 15 November 2008]
• a purely private, wholly unregulated mode of transportation [14 November 2008]
• StudioCanal's Optimum Releasing, a wholly owned subsidiary of Canal Plus [1 November 2008]
• created by wholly-owned stores to support wholesale sales [8 November 2008]
• Sales of Volvo, wholly-owned by Ford, plummeted [3 November 2008]
• the size of his wholly owned online delivery business [8 November 2008]

I think we can do better than follow their example!

And don't appeal to terms of art in law (in just one jurisdiction, as far as we know) to determine our general recommendations here. It is because they are terms of art that they are special cases, and should not affect standard consistent usage for Wikipedia. We cannot note all special uses; we give the best general guidance we can. Some of us do, I mean.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree; we could do worse than to follow their example: permit both. Of the seven examples of wholly-owned, four are hyphenated (one of those may be unwise); wholly unregulated is like really good, and should not be hyphenated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

In light of the evidence presented, is there any reason why people keep removing "normally" and re-inserting what has been shown to be a patently bad example (the wholly owned thing)? Or tagging the whole section when only one small point is considered dubious?--Kotniski (talk) 07:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Because this is a style guide, and that's the chosen style. Has anyone produced a style guide that advocates for a hyphen after ly? SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 07:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Kotniski, I cannot speak for others. For myself, there are two answers to your question:

1. The various suggested changes weaken a strong and useful guideline that is in accord with all major style guides – British, American, and Australian, at least. The guideline already falls in the scope of a general qualification that I have quoted three times above. Further qualification is unnecessary and counterproductive.
2. As I have written above: "Now, as I have revealed, I have a draft that is more complex and less like the standard that is accepted by almost all guides. I am not absolutely against a more complex guideline! But so far, Anderson has given only feeble reasons for pusillanimous changes, some of which he attempts to introduce by stealth under misleading edit summaries. That we should resist. His attacks have gone on for too long. If he used evidence, if he offered cogent arguments (and responded to cogent arguments!), the case would be different. / I might accept normally if it were not the result of such a flawed process of deliberation here. I would accept a different example than wholly owned subsidiary; but I note that to avoid this example is to avoid guiding exactly where an editor will want guidance." I should add to that: wholly owned subsidiary is an excellent example for us to retain, since it shows how our chosen style (indeed, that of all major style guides) resolves even that unstable and uncertain case!

So I do not mean to be intransigent. I am taking a stand, and so are some others, against an editor whose pernicious activity has been steadily against everything we (nearly all of us) are working to achieve here. He is, for whatever unfathomable reason, zealously against the natural program of every style guide: to provide genuine guidance; to prescribe solutions to problems of style, whether or not they are ultimately adopted by those who seek that guidance. We sometimes capitulate to Anderson, because life is too short. But this time I do not capitulate, and I invite others not to also. At the very least he should not amend the guideline while there is still discussion of it here. But he doesn't even do us that courtesy.

Kotniski, much more detail is in the dense forest of verbiage above. I have answered every one of Anderson's points that has any relevance; he has addressed precious few of mine, and seems determined to have his own way against the majority here no matter what evidence or what argument is brought to bear. If the majority think we should give in to pressure from such an isolated and ill-motivated editor, I shall happily return to my retirement from this talkpage and from editing WP:MOS. Yes, I withdrew entirely, many months ago, because of the impossibility of dealing with Anderson. I came back reluctantly because I saw that an unfair burden fell on Tony, who labours to keep Anderson from white-anting Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Unlike some, I have no psychological need to stay here; and I will not, if MOS once more appears to me to be a lost cause.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 07:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand your sentiments and hope that you will stay with us and make more of your valuable contributions, but on this specific point, if the law itself says "wholly-owned", this must at the very least be the wrong example to use, and it probably also serves as evidence that the MoS rule can be watered down at least to the extent of adding "normally" (or possibly by trying to formulate the exception more precisely, maybe with a restriction to British English, if this kind of hyphen grates with those from the US and Oz).--Kotniski (talk) 10:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Kotniski, never mind the sentiments: feel the evidence. And weigh the arguments. As for wholly-owned being enshrined by what you with wide eyes call "the law itself", so is wholly owned. From the British Shipbuilders Act 1983, UK:

any activities which were carried on, immediately before the date of transfer, by a company which, by virtue of this Act, becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of British Shipbuilders

none of whom need be a wholly owned subsidiary of British Shipbuilders

And more of the same within that act. Then there is this from the Transport Act 2000, UK:

The expressions “subsidiary” and “wholly owned subsidiary” have the meanings given by section 736 of the [1985 c. 6.] Companies Act 1985 or Article 4 of the [S.I. 1986/1032 (N.I. 6).] Companies (Northern Ireland) Order 1986.

Seems pretty definitive and consistent, right? Or the Railway Heritage Act 1996, UK:

any wholly owned subsidiary of the Board

"The law itself", even within the single jurisdiction of the UK legislature, is inconsistent. Must we therefore be? No. We needn't strive at every point to pursue a half-baked pluralism. No style guide does that. It sets a style, and prescribes remedies for those seeking specific help with style issues. We let them down if we explicitly permit every recorded variant, or cravenly step around giving a decision in problematic cases. Where would it end? They can still use their judgement; no one is saying they shouldn't or can't.

Burchfield's revision of Fowler's ran into a great deal of censure for failing in exactly the way Anderson advocates. The reprinted first edition gets 4.5 stars out of a possible 5 stars at Amazon; Burchfield's edition gets 3 stars, and the reviews tell you why. Then compare Garner's Modern American Usage that I have referred to: absolutely clear and prescriptive, and because of that it gets a near-unanimous 5 stars from its 25 reviewers (one of whom gives it only 4 stars). You can be sure that not one of those reviewers felt under any compulsion to abide by Garner's expert rulings. But they all appreciated his guidance.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 11:38, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

O, but I simply must add these two, both from the very same page of the Crossrail Act 2008, UK:

from a body corporate which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of CLRL

from a body corporate which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Greater London Authority, the London Development Agency or Transport for London

Anderson might take this as precedent for allowing inconsistency even within one article; I take it as decisive evidence that a clear ruling is needed.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 12:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, but the Companies Act actually defines wholly-owned subsidiaries (and uses that form consistently). It would be perverse to use a different hyphenation if writing about that Act, for example. This may be the type of exception that is so rare as not to require mention, but we could at least find an equally valid and illustrative example that isn't itself likely to be the subject of such an exception. (Maybe even the "specially designed" one that started this whole thing off, though that might look a bit pointy.)--Kotniski (talk) 13:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Along with never minding the sentiments, Kotniski, never mind "where I'm coming from". Mind, rather, the hard arguments and evidence I bring to bear. I am tired of repeating points that readers miss. Brevity is most valuable and compelling; but neither brevity nor long-windedness nor even the oratory of angels will have any effect, if people fail to pay attention. I have already argued for our not being swayed by practice in UK legislation, and explained how that inconsistent practice should have us retain the controversial example, not weakly sidestep it, abnegating our responsibility.

See my response to Wavelength, in the section below.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer to tag the clause only, but every effort to do so has been reverted (we'll see if Kotniski's sticks); as far as I am concerned, a tag is preferable to edit-warring.

I don't see why the addition of another normally to a section which already has one is being decried as chaos come again. Why is "we normally do X" not clear? If I were genuinely uncertain between X and Y, I'd take it as advice to do X. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Kotniski's tag is a brilliant innovation, and much to be preferred. Why should it be removed, so long as this discussion drags on?

No, Anderson: normally would not amount to "chaos come again". But it is one more tiny worm eating away at the robustness and utility of our Manual of Style. And you are the Wurmmeister.

If this must continue, let it be in the section below, for the convenience of us all.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Alternative examples

Here are 12 alternative examples for use in the manual. Maybe they include at least one which everyone can accept. These include four active participial adjectives, four passive participial adjectives, and four non-participial adjectives. They include eight plural nouns and four singular nouns. They can even suggest other examples which may be better.

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

All of that avoids the core issue, Wavelength: an issue that is illustrated by the particular guideline we are looking at, but one that pervades all of our work at MOS. That is why I, for one, am holding on tight.

The core issue? It is easy to find alternative examples and workarounds. It is fatally easy to evade the task of settling the hard questions that will bring editors to MOS in the first place. Sure, we could go the way of Burchfield, and give no useful ruling. Look what reception that gets from users (see above)! Or instead, we can say this, in effect: "Here is a useful and robust guideline. You are wondering whether to write wholly owned subsidiary or wholly-owned subsidiary? Ah yes: both are used, sometimes inconsistently by the same source. But we, along with every other major style guide, recommend the form without the hyphen." And we have our reasons for this recommendation, what's more.

I am reminded of uncertainties with terms addressed in Diatonic and chromatic. In initiating and developing that article I surveyed a vast number of sources, as the fifty footnotes might suggest. I saw very many "authorities" that crept around the central problem with the term diatonic, which has two logically incompatible meanings. Such craven pussy-footing is not a good look, and it is worthless in a style guide. To guide, we must confront hard cases. UK legislation is inconsistent, but that is no good precedent for us.

Keep the example we have now. If we do not, either we fail to guide or we must make a considerably more complex guideline. I am not absolutely against a more complex guideline; but I think others might be.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The core issue is that Noetica insists on making MOS assert falsehood. "Wholly-owned subsidiaries" is usage, as xer own examples attest; in some contexts it is mandatory usage. Having an example which denies that makes MOS look illiterate and bullying; I should prefer not to.

The grammatical point here is the difference between two slightly different constructions: "majestically tall sequoias" can become "tall sequoias" with a slight change in force. But "X Company sold off its owned subsidiary Y Technologies" is scarcely intelligible - and that's why it is usual to hyphenate wholly-owned. The examples Wavelength cites are of the first, normal, type, and that's why we should use one of them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The legal document cited above is about commercial law, and not about regulating the English language. It is not a style guide. An error slipped into the document in many places, and no one corrected it. Someone should contact the people responsible for the document, and tell them about the mistake. Maybe there will be a corrected version published in the future, or, at least, an addendum of errata.

If I were a British lawyer composing text about the act, I would not hyphenate the expression "wholly owned subsidiary", in spite of what the act says. If I were a British legal secretary composing text for a British lawyer who wanted the expression hyphenated, I would tell the lawyer that the authors of the document made a mistake, and I would try to persuade the lawyer to follow a reliable style guide.

Whether "designed sound cards" or "owned subsidiary" is meaningful is irrelevant to a reader who reads in a forward direction, from left to right. (Presumably, the meaningfulness is questioned because all sound cards are designed and all subsidiaries are owned, and so the unmodified adjectives add no information.) Faulty parsing appears to be the crux of PMAnderson's unusual point of view.

I understand better now why Noetica wants to retain the long-standing example "wholly owned subsidiary". In the interests of brevity, a person consulting the Manual sees that, even in a case like this, where some people might have seen in the legal document a reason to hyphenate, the omission of the hyphen is recommended. Therefore, in easier cases, such as "specially designed sound cards", that is likewise the course to follow.

Unfortunately, my good intentions in providing alternative examples may have made things more difficult for Noetica and for me. (I started this discussion because my dehyphenation to "specially designed sound cards" in paragraph 4 of Electric guitar#Sound and effects was challenged.)

-- Wavelength (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Wavelength, I cannot begin to tell you how pleased I am that someone, at least, can be persuaded by sound argument. Thank you for paying attention, and for graciously acknowledging a change of heart, as we all should from time to time. That is enormously to your credit.

Anderson, you claim that I "insist on making MOS assert falsehood". But you misrepresent me. Two points:

1. I am discussing the issues; you insist on making changes to a long-established guideline that is tagged for discussion. I have just reverted your last attempt (which was garbled, by the way). Who is grasping for control, here?
2. With a guideline in the form of a plain indicative utterance, a style guide cannot genuinely assert a falsehood. Not in any interesting or relevant sense. The guideline is a stipulation. When God says thou shalt not kill and the recipient of the instruction does kill, has God uttered a falsehood? Only on a twisted understanding of how language operates. We have already covered this: the surface structure of a guideline can be a plain statement (thou shalt not kill), or it can be a modal formulation (thou mayst not kill), or it can be an imperative (do not kill). But none of this affects its manifest force as a guideline (or a recommendation, or an injunction, depending on the case and the context).

You claim that my examples attest to wholly-owned subsidiaries. Sure, that is used: here and there, inconsistently. It is one sort of problem case; loosely speaking, it is a crux for anyone setting out to guide style. For that very reason we should confront it! As I have pointed out (and you have not answered the point), it is exactly in such crucial instances that editors will consult MOS. You would have us supply information that most people already have. Few will have trouble with majestically tall sequoias; many will with wholly owned subsidiary. Yes, even UK legislation is all over the place with that one! If we stick boldly with a difficult case like wholly owned subsidiary, we cover all contingencies: we advise grandma without telling her how to suck eggs, and a fortiori we advise those who do need advice in the basics.

A clear and confident MOS will not look bullying, any more than Garner's book (mentioned earlier) is seen that way. Rather, like Garner's book it will have earned respect, and actually be used: it sets a consensual style, and delivers it boldly and clearly. The newest Fowler's fails to guide; you would have us do the same.

I agree that there is a difference between most purely adjectival and many participial cases. I have analysed this thoroughly myself, and could say more. But all major style guides give the guideline that we currently give; and it is mysterious why we should want to complicate things, and be over-delicate where they are robust and clear.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:23, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

But changing the example wouldn't need to do either of these things. There must be other equally crux-ish examples that don't carry the objection that the term is defined (not just mentioned) in law using a different hyphenation style. I'm sure most people would consider it incorrect to write "the UK Companies Act defines a wholly owned subsidiary as..." if we know it uses a hyphen there - factual correctness must trump stylistic correctness. --Kotniski (talk) 11:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

If I were writing about the Act, I would omit the hyphen. If I were quoting the Act, I would use the hyphen, but I would put "[sic]" after the expression (see sic). I would do so, even if it meant doing both in the same sentence. See paragraph 2 of my previous message.

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think we're just gonig to disagree about this. Doing what you suggest would, I suspect, be viewed as annoying or incomprehensible pedantry by most readers (but then the majority aren't always right...)--Kotniski (talk) 07:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

English is a language which allows flexibility. Both The Guardian[4] and The Daily Telegraph[5] arbitrarily use "wholly owned" and "wholly-owned". Our style guideline cannot be prescripive, if general practice is not. Therefore editors can use either construction as they prefer. Ty 12:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Prescriptiveness has already been discussed. Please read #Hyphens after -ly adverbs (rationalised section) from the beginning, or search for "prescri" on this page.

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Wavelength:

Your care with citation of the act would go well beyond the care that the UK legislators take, as we have seen. Analysis of occurrences of wholly[-] owned subsidiary using the advanced search facility at www.publications.parliament.uk is revealing. Like Google, the facility does not detect hyphens. The first 50 hits on a search for wholly owned subsidiary show, in the heads that appear on the screen:

• 33 hyphenated instances
• 22 unhyphenated instances

Not an impressive majority, for Hansard and all other parliamentary uses. When we restrict the search to actual legislation (bills or acts), we find in the first 20 hits:

• 14 hyphenated instances
• 16 unhyphenated instances

Clearly the definition in the Companies Act is not about English usage, as you have pointed out. Nor is it taken as guiding style at the official site of the Parliament that framed it. Nor do the Hansard transcribers appear to give a hoot one way or the other. Should we care what the UK Companies Act says, then? Of course not! Nor should any other style guide. And – unanimously – they don't.

Ty:

You write that "Our style guideline cannot be prescriptive, if general practice is not." But that is singularly unhelpful. "General practice" is that which stands in need of prescription (or does not, if your view is different). To say that general practice either prescribes or fails to prescribe is to make a basic category mistake. Are CMOS, New Hart's, and the other major style guides in awe of "general practice"? Of course not. They prescribe standards, just because "general practice" is chaotic and inconsistent. And people subscribe to them in droves because they want such guidance. Please follow Wavelength's suggestion, and read what has already been said about this.

Kotniski:

It is not clear whom you are addressing when you write "Doing what you suggest...". Please try to keep a long and complex discussion orderly. See, for example, how I am structuring this post. Beyond that, the issue here is not something on which we can simply agree to disagree. Through this seemingly trivial example (hyphenating wholly owned subsidiary) we approach core dilemmas for MOS: Err on the side of detail or the side of simplicity? Err by prescribing too narrowly or by barely prescribing at all? And more.

Anderson:

Again I have reverted your unilateral meddling with an established guideline that is tagged for discussion here. (I hope others will assist in reverting such uncollegial edits.) You write: " 'X Company sold off its owned subsidiary Y Technologies' is scarcely intelligible". But that is not so. The details vary according to the jurisdiction in which a company is set up, but strictly a subsidiary is not always owned. Some subsidiaries are not even minority-owned subsidiaries. What makes a company a subsidiary of its parent company is that the parent company has control of the subsidiary. This is normally underwritten by at least majority ownership, but it need not be. Google searches are dangerous, as we all acknowledge; but a search on "the owned subsidiary" (the quote marks are essential) gets 1,350 hits. I could say much more about the motivations for hyphens in such premodifiers, and more tellingly than in the case of wholly owned subsidiary. But I am inclined not to. As I have said, major style guides are effectively unanimous on this point; and they agree with our own long-standing and simple guideline. You have not made a case for our doing differently; and you have not made a case for us holding back from delivering genuine guidance in difficult cases.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There would appear to be consensus above that wholly owned subsidiary is not the best example, from Johnbod, Kotniski, and Wavelength, for various reasons. Any of Wavelangth's dozen examples above would not be hyphenated, even in the most formal British English; they are, therefore improvements over wholly owned subsidiary. Perhaps Noetica can explain why xe keeps reverting to the weakest example we can find, which is, even by xer own research, hyphenated as often as not? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Anderson, once more you distort the tenor of the discussion. You refuse to focus on the lines of argument and the enormous amount of evidence that I can easily bring against your flat assertions. Do not persist in making changes to a guideline flagged for discussion. Do not continue to pretend that you have unambivalent support for such changes, let alone consensus. Far from wholly owned subsidiary being the weakest example we can find, it is much bolder and gives much clearer guidance than any of the listed alternatives – alternatives that Wavelength now regrets offering, if I read correctly. Please: let us read correctly! And let us not attempt to mislead other editors. If they read through what has gone before, the deception is easily uncovered.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Anderson, what on earth makes you think I want, or anyone else here wants, "a compromise". I do not compromise when it comes to redundancy in language, and nor should you. Ilaki, I don't understand why you find the hyphen acceptable when it is redundant. Tell me now that it's not redundant, and we can get down to the nub of it. Hyphens are useful—indeed indespensable—to good writing, but only where they're useful. To add a redundant hyphen is to distract the reader, and to make the reading harder, not easier. I have no intention of accepting this watering down of a useful and long-standing guidance to our editors that has helped to make WP's prose better for our readers. Tony (talk) 00:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:Consensus. Thos