Wikipedia talk:External links 

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This is the talk page for discussing maintenance of the Guideline about Wikipedia:External links.
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External links in infoboxes?

There is ongoing debate over at Template talk:Infobox Film about whether or not is it suitable to have links to IMDb and Allmovie in the infobox. A request for comment has now been made, so some fresh opinions the the matter would certainly be welcome. PC78 (talk) 23:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd also add the question of whether a link to an official site needs to be in the infobox, since you're then doing nothing except linking to an advert - this being even less useful from an encyclopedic perspective than a link to imdb or allmovie. With that in mind, is the prominent recommendation to include an external link to an official site entirely appropriate given that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on reliable THIRD PARTY sources. Do professional biographies/ers provide such information? GDallimore (Talk) 15:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
External links and citations are two different things, and neither WP:RS nor WP:PRIMARY prohibit using primary sources as a source of information. See also this very guideline (specifically, WP:ELYES), which says that an official website should be linked to within an article. Actually, I've just noticed the bit in this guideline which says, "Instead, include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end and/or in the appropriate location within an infobox or navbox (my emphasis)", which doesn't help the argument for getting rid of them in the above discussion. PC78 (talk) 00:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The thing about infoboxes is only there because it recognizes standard practice, like putting the official site in corporate boxes. It would be nice to get rid of them all, but it appears lots of people like the official sites ones. 2005 (talk) 02:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, yes, and I agree with you, but surely you can see that having that sentence in the guideline is problematic if you are citing this guideline elsewhere to get such links removed? PC78 (talk) 10:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to suggest better wording. 2005 (talk) 10:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I have no intention of making any such suggestion at this point; best to see how the discussion at Template Talk:Infobox Film plays out first. PC78 (talk) 10:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I think that the point behind PC78's original message was to invite participation at the RFC, not to suggest changes to this guideline. This is a reasonable place for a friendly notice about external links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Now that concensus was reached over the template and the links have been removed, perhaps it would be best to take out the reference to infoboxes in this guideline? What about external links in navboxes? Personally I'm inclined to think that they should only navigate within Wikipedia and not to external websites, but I don't know if that view is consistant with general opinion. PC78 (talk) 10:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The consensus on the Infobox film template doesn't seem to be a universal infobox consensus so I would say that altering the external links guideline is inappropriate. If I missed a larger discussion please point me to it. On navigation boxes I've always removed external links that I've seen in these, and I see it as entirely separate from infoboxes. -- SiobhanHansa 12:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Some of those involved in that discussion who post here were citing this guideline as a reason why external links shouldn't be included in an infobox. PC78 (talk) 13:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Automatic external links, other than to an official site, should never be used in an infobox. The current consensus seems clear that official sites can automatically be in infoboxes. It also seems to support that other external links can sometimes be in infoboxes sometimes, but should not just be added automatically. I'd support removing all external links from infoboxes since this is an encyclopedia, not a flash card site. But as long as generally links in infoboxes are usually just official sites, and rarely something else that is individually chosen for that article, then I guess that isn't so bad. Automatic links though should never happen. 2005 (talk) 23:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
The reason for consensus agreeing that the links don't belong is based firmly in compliance with Wikipedia guidelines, including WP:EL. As such, I think it should apply to all infoboxes. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I think that WP:WikiProject Medicine will scream bloody murder if you try to gut Template:Infobox Disease on the rather flimsy grounds that people decided to removed IMDb links from Template:Infobox Film. While I think the Film decision was reasonably sound, that doesn't mean that every single infobox contains equally unimportant external links. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
As I read the discussion some people were citing this guideline as a reason why links to some particular sites should not be in the info box. That isn't the same thing as citing this guideline to say no external links should be in the info box. (If I'm mistaken in this perhaps you could point me to the bit(s) of the Infobox film discussion where it was generally agreed that this guideline does not support any external links in info boxes). -- SiobhanHansa 20:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
It would be pretty difficult to interpret statements in this guideline like include appropriate external links in an "External links" section at the end and/or in the appropriate location within an infobox... as meaning this guideline prohibits external links in infoboxes (but I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, based on how often we repeat "This guideline does not apply to ==References=="). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

DMOZ Template(s)

I propose changing WP:ELMAYBE item 3 from:

3. A well-chosen link to a directory of websites or organizations. ... The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the [Template: dmoz] template.

to:

3. A well-chosen link to a directory of websites or organizations. ... The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the DMOZ category or name template or DMOZ search template, whichever is most effective in creating a link to match the article subject.

This makes editors aware of the dmoz search template which is often much more precise in matching the dmoz results to the article subject than the category template. DMOZ categories often don't exist or align with an article subject. Also, directory entries are not always assigned to the categories consistently by the many DMOZ editors. A properly constructed DMOZ search will often produce a much more appropriate directory link for an article.

There is also a dmoz3 for embedded links to DMOZ, but I suggest we exclude that since embedded links are discouraged. Qazin (talk) 21:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The Dmoz2 template should be deleted since it should never be used as this guideline directly prohibits linking to search pages. Obviously this guideline should not contradict itself, so the currrent wording is better. 2005 (talk) 21:48, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh my that seems like a poor choice of template; we're urged to not add search dumps to the page, and it's only once that I can recall a search result page being of use (and I didn't link to it IIRC). Adding a "suggest a link" component to the template also subverts the purpose of wikipedia to be secondary to another website (DMOZ in this case). I would instead suggest at DMOZ the creation of a relevant page. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 22:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the "suggest a site" feature is in dmoz2 and not dmoz. Based on other discussions regarding the dmoz template, I suspect the idea was to encourage potential link spammers to make their suggestions at DMOZ instead of spamming WP. However, I wouldn't object to removing it. But, I'm also not sure I understand your objection. That feature seems to do what you suggest: it goes to the suggestion page at DMOZ. Qazin (talk) 03:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
WP:ELNO item 9 discourages "Links to the results pages of search engines, search aggregators, or RSS feeds." The DMOZ is a Web directory, not a search engine, aggregator, or RSS feed. If item 9 is intended to discourage links to all results pages, perhaps the three specified types of results pages should either be removed or designated as examples. Qazin (talk) 03:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
No, the template links to a Dmoz search page, not a directory page. We have no problem linking to a Dmoz web diretcory page, but a search page is to be avoided, as the guideline states. (Similarly, we link to newspapers, but we don't link to the search page of a newspaper.) 2005 (talk) 04:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
A search template is never a "well-chosen link". There are other ways to advertise the DMOZ templates. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:04, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
The advantage of the dmoz search template over the category template is illustrated in the featured article Batman#External_links. The DMOZ Batman search consolidates ODP Batman listings from 10 categories. Because of the way ODP is organized, there can't be a single category which covers all sites where Batman is the subject. The ODP upper level categories are not based on subjects, but rather on disciplines or classes like the DDC. One dmoz search link gives all relevant dmoz Batman sites, which otherwise would require 10 dmoz category links. This dmoz search link appears to be a better choice than any of the alternative dmoz category links. (Disclosure: I am an ODP editor) Qazin (talk) 03:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
That's a perfect example of why the template should be deleted. It brings up a search result page with is specifically something this guideline says should not be linked to. If Dmoz has no well-edited Batman category, then no Dmoz page should be linked to. And, if the Dmoz comic Batman page doesn't link to the other Dmoz Batman categories, then that just means the Dmoz page is a poor example of a Dmoz page, as normal practice should be that all related categories would be linked to. 2005 (talk) 04:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Since WP:ELNO item 9 has now be clarified and Dmoz2 is unambiguously in violation, I have nominated it for deletion. Qazin (talk) 19:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Links to search results

I propose clarification of WP:ELNO item 9 by changing it from:

9. Links to the results pages of search engines, search aggregators, or RSS feeds.

To either A:

9. Links to any search results pages.

or B:

9. Links to search results pages specifically on search engines, search aggregators, or RSS feeds.

There appears to be at least the two interpretations above of item 9 as evidenced by:

  1. Discussions on this talk page;
  2. The continued existence of a template:dmoz2 which some editors believe conflicts with item 9;
  3. The use of that template, which some editors found acceptable enough to leave in a featured article, but which other editors believe violates item 9; and
  4. The reversion of a previous attempt by another editor to put a search option in template:dmoz.

To minimize future conflict, I propose we develop a consensus for one of the above meanings (or an alternative) and communicate it clearly in the guideline. Qazin (talk) 05:27, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Rogue templates are created and used all time. Their existence or use means nothing in terms of this consensus guideline. Changing the text to improve it seems fine to me, but Links to any search results pages or RSS feeds. would include the second type of thing, since RSS feeds aren't search results. 2005 (talk) 07:09, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Good point. I had overlooked that. In fact, it seems strange that "RSS feeds" was ever in item 9. Since it is a completely different type of thing than a search results page, I'm wondering if perhaps it should be discouraged in a different item such as:
  • A new item 18 discouraging Web_feeds in general (not just the RSS format) and links to online Web feed readers like Google Reader; or
  • Item 8, as an added example of "Direct links to documents that require external applications ...", or special browser capabilities, namely the Web feed reader.
Qazin (talk) 06:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Archive 20 explains why "feed" is in item 9: "The wording intends to cover (search engine results of course) but also news 'feed' aggregated sites, not just 'search aggregators'." Apparently it is aimed at news aggregation sites using Web feeds, not the feeds themselves, which as I suggested are probably covered by "Direct links to documents that require external applications ...". Qazin (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I found references to this item in archives 12, 15, and 20.

I also spot checked some past revisions for some historical wordings of item 9:

Qazin (talk) 22:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Part of the disagreement comes from the ambiguity of search engine which can refer to 1) a site/system specific search engine or 2) a Web search engine. Adding to this confusion is the fact that some Web search engines can be set to search only one site, and that some sites use Web search engines as Application Service Providers to provide local search capabilities on their sites. This is further complicated by the existing link in item 9 to the SERP article, in which SERP is defined as a results page from a search engine, which links to the Web search engine article, thereby suggesting definition 2 is intended.

If definition 1 is assumed, that pretty much excludes the search results page on any site and supports proposal A above. If definition 2 is assumed it only excludes search results pages on Web search sites like Google, etc. (when searching more than one site), and would lead to proposal B. Qazin (talk) 23:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there any reason that we can't combine these? 9. Links to any search results pages, such as links to search engines, search aggregators, or RSS feeds. is both general enough to cover all the circumstances and specific enough to convince the unwilling that it really does apply in the most frequent cases. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I like your proposal better than the current wording, but since you link to examples of only Web-search results pages, I worry that it could still be interpreted as discouraging only Web-search results pages and not site-search results pages. Some editors have argued that it is often useful to link to a site-search, while agreeing that links to a Web-search should be discouraged. I lean towards that view, but strongly believe we must remove the current ambiguity, even if the consensus is to discourage links to site-searches. So, maybe we should say something like:
  • "Links to any site-search or Web-search results page, such as ..."; or
  • "Links to any Web-search results page, such as ... . Links to site-search results pages may be used if otherwise compatible with this guideline.";
depending on the consensus, and followed by appropriate examples if necessary. Also, I'm not sure the search aggregator example is necessary since a search aggregator is a type of meta search engine, which is a type of Web search engine. Qazin (talk) 23:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
So perhaps

9. Links to any search results pages, such as links to individual website searches, search engines, search aggregators, or RSS feeds.

would be more instructive?
The consensus opposes any sort of search result, whether it's looking at a single website or millions of them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:13, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I think that removes all ambiguity. I suspect there may be one or two acceptable exceptions to no "individual website searches," but they can be argued on their own merits in the future and added if there is consensus. We seem to have reached a consensus on this, so I will make the change and link the summary to this thread. Qazin (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly a rogue external links template was created today Template:GovLinks that links to newspaper search pages 9and a bunch of other stuff violating this guideline). I've nominated it for deletion, but this shows it is important that this wording be clear. 2005 (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Linking to archive

If a product/company's official site is now offline, but was archived by the internet archive, would it be appropriate to link to that archive in the EL section? I'm thinking no, myself, per dead links, but would like some outside views before removing such links from some defunct magazine articles. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how such links would ever be appropriate. Certainly some editors add such links, but if you follow this guideline and other policies you should immediately remove them. 2005 (talk) 21:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
It seems like it would be useful. Certainly if the URL is worth noting (often in the infobox) when the site is alive, it's still worth noting (and linking to a convenience copy) after it dies. --NE2 20:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't seem useful to me. It might be useful as a reference, but not as an external link. I would support a specific ban on anything at web.archive.org underneath the ==External links== header. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
What if the article is about a defunct website? Surely it would be useful to let readers see the website. --NE2 11:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
What if the owner of the website content took it offline because they wanted to take it offline? There's no reason to ever link to archive pages. 2005 (talk) 11:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
So if Yahoo.com were to go down permanently, you wouldn't think we should have a link to the Internet Archive for it? That's silly. --NE2 15:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
No, we shouldn't. There is a difference between accessing an archive to source a statement because the content was moved/removed, and linking to a dead site's archive just to say "here is what the official site once looked like." That doesn't provide useful information to the reader. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Of course it's useful to know what a site looked like; that's why many of our articles (Google search for instance) show a screenshot. If we can legally do that by linking to an archived copy (the Internat Archive's application of fair use has, if I remember correctly, been tested in court), then we should. --NE2 18:03, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
You are quite mistaken. It is not just "silly" to link to a copyvio site, it is rude and sleazy. As discussed before, the Internet archive is a copyvio site. It plainly does not meet the criteria of being a brick and mortar library keeping one hard copy of a document. It should never be linked under any circumstances, but this guideline does not deal with sources, only external links. If Yahoo went off line tomorrow, it would be because they want to take the site offline, and it is completely obnoxious to show what the site used to look like. If the owners of the content want to show the content, they can. If they don't want to show it, it is not our mission to say "here is a snapshot taken without permission of the owners." (I do agree that offline official sites is a less rude use of the archive than linking to other pages on other domains, but there still is never any excuse to display stolen exact copies of content.) 2005 (talk) 22:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, so you're just trying to push your own interpretation of copyright law, and I recommend we ignore you and do what's best for the reader. --NE2 22:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Don't be a dick. What is "best for the reader" is not the main criteria here. Whether you like it or not, we have a policy not to link to copyvio sites. This guideline follows that. Wikipedia is not a lot of things that could be seen as "best" for the reader, like making a link farm, including gossip about living people, and linking to all sorts of youtube stolen videos. 2005 (talk) 23:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Don't call me a dick. I'm done here. --NE2 23:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
So, if links to the archives of official sites are not useful external links, why are they useful when the sites are still live? I'm not following 2005 and WhatamIdoing's logic here. It doesn't seem farfetched that the archive could be quite a pertinent external link.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 15:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't get this either. As I see it, the ELs are supposed to be a service to the reader, not to the owner of that page. If the EL leads to relevant information, it shouldn't matter if it's archived or not. And "if the owner of the website content took it offline because they wanted to take it offline", as opposed to taking it offline because of having no need to keep it online anymore, then he/she/they could make that clear by getting the page removed from the archive as well. - Wikipedia is a repository of knowledge, not a place for free advertising. We should do what's best for the reader. -- Goodraise (talk) 16:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
How is it servicing the reader to point to an archive of a dead site? They can half way see what it sort of looked like, except the archive version may or may not even work correctly, may be missing large chunks of data if it was an image heavy site, and may or not have working links depending on when/if the other pages of the site were archived. Using as a reference is one thing, but it does not provide additional/useful information if the site is offline and no longer being maintained. And, from what I've seen, getting pages removed from the archive is not easy once its archived. They can block future archives, but I don't think they can remove existing ones without a lot of hassle. And why should they have to? The site is dead...if people are linking to it, they get that message as well they should. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 16:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
2005's position, that there is never any reason to link to the archive, seems extreme. If a good reference disappears from the internet, a link to the internet archive would seem like the only way to keep that reference verifiable. 2005's justification is that perhaps the owner wishes to take it off-line. However, other than for reasons which are covered elsewhere such as copyright violations, is there any reason we should accede to such an implied wish? Sounds like acceding to a re-writing of history to me, hence websites such as http://www.thememoryhole.org/. cojoco (talk) 16:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
If a link is used to back up a claim, it should be listed under references, either exclusively or in addition to under ELs. More to the point, I don't think 2005 is refering to archived references, only to archived ELs. -- Goodraise (talk) 17:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not advocating keeping them all, or removing them all. I simply think, it should be decided on a per case basis. If an archived EL is still useful, keep it. If it is not useful, remove it. If I stop selling a book I wrote, that doesn't automatically mean I don't want it to be read anymore. Being considerate of what the owner of the content might be wanting can't really be our responsibility. - Now, IF the information is still useful and IF the page linked is not violating copyright, then I really don't see any reason to deny the reader of that information. -- Goodraise (talk) 17:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussed 2 months ago. See Wikipedia talk:External links/Archive 22#Archived versions and Wikipedia talk:Dead external links#No reason to link to an archive copy of a page.

They're used in everything from Featured articles on down. There is No reason to mass-remove these links, and there was disagreement over the deletion of these lines from the guideline (which I agree should be replaced). -- Quiddity (talk) 20:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Are we all talking about the same thing here?
User:2005 objects to this:
==External links==
* [http://web.archive.org Please go read a copy of this website, which is now totally dead, but we found a archive that's probably only half-broken]
Several comments here make me think that this is being confused with <ref>[http://web.archive.org I found this information at a website that's now offline, but fortunately there's an archive for it]</ref>
Are we all perfectly clear that this guideline only deals with the clickable items under ==External links==, and not anything at all that's enclosed by <ref> tags or otherwise filed under ==References==? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes. As used in Featured Articles. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Can you name any recently promoted feature articles that have something like web.archive.org under ==External links==? (I'll take anything that passed FAC in the last year as sufficiently recent.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Super Mario 64, promoted version. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Um, the FA notice on its talk page says that it was featured on January 31, 2005, which is slightly more than three years before the link you provide above. At that time, it did not use the Template:Nintendo.com-archive, which was created in December 2007 as a temporary measure when Nintendo reorganized its website (about which, see here). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify, Super Mario 64 has had 2 FACs. It was first promoted October 20, 2004, featured on the main page, and then demoted November 29, 2006. It's most recent FAC resulted in promotion on February 4, 2008. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC))
I'm honestly surprised that it passed FAC and not merely because of the web.archive.org link. That line has two dead links in it. Surely we can agree that dead links provide no value to the reader? Why didn't they just link the correct page? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
That was indeed a bad example of a webarchive link.
However, I (and others) still believe that the webarchive links at other featured/good articles (such as Encyclopædia Britannica and Metabolism and John Wilkes Booth) can be very useful in certain circumstances, and that the "destroy them all" attitude is extremely unhelpful. Just because a site loses its hosting, doesn't mean the information is suddenly irrelevant and disposable. Editors who actually write featured articles agree. Does that seem clear? -- Quiddity (talk) 21:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

When is linking to a Wikia acceptable?

Alright, there is a debate regarding the Gantz article, whether there should be a link to the Gantz Wikia. On one hand, the Wikia is controlled by WikiMedia, but technically it is a separate project from the Wikimedia projects. On User:Jump Guru's talk page Jump Guru and Collectionian raised concerns that the Gantz Wikia may not follow copyright rules, and that the Wikias are mostly written by fans. What should we do? Should we put more pressure on Wikia to make its Wikis follow copyright rules? WhisperToMe (talk) 08:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

"We" should just care about the Wikipedia. Most wikis are terrible links; some are quite good. Our guideline reflects that. Editors at individual articles need to judge whether a specific wiki should be a rare exception or not. 2005 (talk) 09:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Please see below post WhisperToMe (talk) 10:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Wikia is not controlled by Wikimedia. --NE2 09:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Alright - however many of the same people (Jimbo Wales, Angela Beesley) that are in charge of Wikimedia are in charge of Wikia, so the two are highly interconnected. This is not only why I asked about whether Wikia is acceptable, but this is also why we should ensure that Wikia doesn't fall victim to copyright problems; this can affect Wikipedia's fortunes indirectly because several people are in charge of both groups. WhisperToMe (talk) 10:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
As a member of the Wikipedia community, I strongly oppose being dragged into similar projects' problems. If I'm a friend of Jimbo Wales and we both like Football and go to Football games together, then that is one thing. If he's also a Basketball fan, while I am not, I am not obliged to watch Basketball with him. (Not that I know Mr. Wales.) The guidelines are here. Wether a certain page on a certain wiki should be linked to from a certain article, should be discussed on the talk page of the article in question. -- Goodraise (talk) 10:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Jimbo would tell you that there's no connection, none at all, no-sirree Of course there is a de facto connection, but that's no reason to give Wikia a de jure (or even de facto, since policy is what we do) exception from our external links policies. --NE2 11:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
There's nothing special about Wikia, and any affiliation that Jimbo may have with Wikia is irrelevant. The standard rules apply: sites which host copyright violations should not be linked to, and sites hosting user-generated content which do not meet our standards for reliability and notability should not be linked to. If editors want to try to coerce Wikia sites to eliminate copyvio and to meet higher quality standards then that's great, of course - but the way to do that isn't to link to them from Wikipedia and hope that the increase in traffic will magically fix things. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Here's something that I have observed. Addition of a Wikia link or for that matter link to any other wikis not related to Wikimedia foundation is based on quality of material on that wiki, coverage of the wiki in relation with the topic in concern, number of registered contributors and whether the wiki seriously violates or ignores copyright issues. There are certain wikis hosted by Wikia e.g. Memory Alpha or Wookiepedia which are very commonly linked in articles related with Star Trek and Star Wars respectively. This is primarily because of quality of content offered by these wikis. On the other hand if you some other Wikias e.g. Smallville, The Office, or Scrubs, they do not provide significant coverage or quality desired. I believe such validation can easily be done by a simple discussion between editors interested in related articles. LeaveSleaves talk 14:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with you about all three of these -- they meet the necessary criterion of being a accessible source of substantial additional information--and probably the best source at that, more than the show websites (though they get included also). What they provide at a minimum is fuller information about the characters. Wikia does have a minimum standard of quality to approve a wiki, and I think it would be quite rare that one of their wikias would not be a good external link. DGG (talk) 03:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC).
A "minimum standard" is about ten miles short of the criteria for a link from an encyclopedia. Wikia's seldom merit an external link. "Fuller information" is no criteria. We seek to link to verifiable, reliable and meritable content. Volume is no part of that. (And that doesn't even mention the over the top advertising on them.) 2005 (talk) 03:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Could you tell me what sort of standards are they maintaining when creating wikis such as Samantha Who?? Or if wikia is so trustworthy, why isn't Lost, one of the larger wikias, considered a valid external link by editors? That's probably because Lost articles on Wikipedia are actually better than on wikia. The point is, this is matter of discretion among editors involved in those particular articles to decide if the relevant wikia site actually provides additional information or not. LeaveSleaves talk 04:41, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
On the same page (Gantz) you linked to a blogspot. sigh Do you think that blogs are notable too? -_- — J U M P G U R U ■ask㋐㋜㋗■ 20:31, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand the question here. We provide here some advice on when to link to any website (see WP:ELYES and WP:ELMAYBE and also on when not to link to any website (see WP:ELNEVER and WP:ELNO) as well as when not to link to wikis in particular (WP:ELNO #12: "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors").
That's our advice: general, flexible, useful, and not holding any organization's website to a different standard from any other website. So what's the actual question? Is there something that we need to clarify in this guideline, or did we just want to chat about this subject in general? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:57, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

We don't link to Wikia, as those sites fail our rules quite dramatically, and we also do not link to blogspot. DreamGuy (talk) 17:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course we link to Wikia, we've been moving content from here to there for years, and many of them have "a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors" which is the relevant criteria, as pointed out directly above your comment. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes we have been moving content from here to there. In fact at the Gantz Wikia (which caused this conversation) the whole Gantz Wikipedia article was copied and pasted onto the main page creating several hundred red links. I like to call it the sea of blood. (^-^) What's the point in linking it? It's just a copy of our page. Other wikias are just YouTube videos which create copyright problems and pixelated pictures which also create copyright problems. Might as well link to a spam website, they're no different. — J U M P G U R U ■ask㋐㋜㋗■ 02:08, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Request editor eyes and opinion at Manufacturing in Mexico

I've been trying to (as I see it) clean up some links at Manufacturing in Mexico and am being reverted by an editor without comment. I would appreciate more experienced eyes on the article and opinions at the discussion at Talk:Manufacturing_in_Mexico#External_links. Thanks. -- SiobhanHansa 20:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Spammy External links in Flava Works article

A user and several IP addresses keep reverting my deletions of external links that do not meet the criteria of WP:EL from the Flava Works article. The links to cocostore.com and thugboy.com lead to promotional websited designed to sell gay porn, the first is an online store and the second is a membership based porn site. I'd like some other editors familiar with the External Link guidelines to step in and intervene here, since the user just templated my talk page warning that I was getting in to an edit war. Themfromspace (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Your edits are definitely appropriate. The other editor needs to refrain from spamming or he could be blocked. 2005 (talk) 00:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

When I created the Flava Works article, my intention in inserting links to various websites associated with Flava Works was not to promote them, but simply to make further information available to readers in the easiest way possible: by allowing them to click on the links. I am aware of the Wikipedia policy on External Links, and I see that the links I created could be interpreted as spam. I will not attempt to restore them. That Themfromspace is involved in edit wars, however, is correct: this editor spends much of his or her time reverting other people's edits, often repeatedly. GBataille (talk) 00:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the latter thing, but if you didn't mean to spam, fine. As the guideline says, external links don't go in the body of an article or to websites that aren't directly on the topic of the article itself. So, it is good that part is resolved. 2005 (talk) 01:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Confusing statement

one should avoid... Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.

I'm kind of baffled by this statement. Possibly there should be a comma after "resource"? But even then it's still a hard sentence to understand... 86.134.10.50 (talk) 02:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

How to deal with random ELs that could be sources?

Does anyone have any bright ideas about how to deal with random links and references that are more or less related to the subject, but not cited? I usually delete or move them to the talk page. I wonder if there is a talk page template or wikiproject that deals with this sort of thing? It's a common problem so I was wondering if we had a more institutional solution. --Adoniscik(t, c) 01:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Citations are a relatively recent FA-requirement. There is no requirement that any given links/references need to be cited within the text (especially not "immediately", see WP:TIND), see: all the "Further reading" sections. If they are great links (potential sources), then leave them where they are (or cite them yourself) for the benefit of other readers.
If there are dozens and dozens and dozens in a short article (overwhelmingly too many), then it occasionally makes sense to move some to a dedicated "holdingpen" thread at the talkpage, e.g. Talk:Agrippa (a book of the dead). But, Never just delete useful information, that's a "One step forward, two steps back..." maneuver - "cutting off nose to spite one's face".
Did you have a specific example in mind that I'm not answering here? -- Quiddity (talk) 19:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In current affairs articles, casual editors will post the latest article they just read in the EL section instead of citing it. I was hoping to develop an alternative to using the EL as a repository of random links. --Adoniscik(t, c) 02:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed addition to "links to be avoided"

Given the amount of spam we receive on a regular basis, perhaps we could be more explicit with the following addition to the list:

  1. In articles about a general type of service or product, one should not add links merely to companies that provide that service or product. For example, in the article about cell phones, one should not add a link to a cell phone service provider or manufacturer.

How does this sound? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This exists: "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep-linked." --NE2 18:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Not really. Sure, existing information in the guideline could be said to already ban these sorts of links, but the language is so hard to follow, and hard for people to understand, that an explicit ban on these kinds of links could go a LONG way towards reducing the sort of edit wars that we run into. As an admin, I often block people for edit warring when they say "Look, it doesn't explicitly say I can't add a link to this site in the WP:EL policy, so I am going to keep adding it". Of course he's wrong, and of course he will still be blocked for edit warring, but I think it would be helpful to add a specific, clear statement that bans these sort of links so that users won't be able to "wikilawyer" around the issue. I am trying to give reasonable people a chance to avoid edit warring here, and a clearer consise statement of this policy (which is, of course, already banned, but not explicitly stated as so) would help. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it's needed. I'd copyedit a bit:

  1. Do not add links to companies that provide a service or product in articles about that service or product. For example, in the article about cell phones, one should not add a link to a cell phone service provider or manufacturer.

It's a bit more terse, but more explicit. Jclemens (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The guideline is much more clear now than what tou suggest: Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services, or to sites with objectionable amounts of advertising. That covers it much better. What you suggest is just wrong since we do want to sometimes link to "companies that provide a service or product in articles about that service or product." IMDb offers the ability to buy a DVD via a couple clicks, but it is more of an information site. If a site has a 10,000 word article on the history of a widget, and happens to have a link to buy the widget at the end of the article, it would be silly to not link to the page because it provides a link to buy the product. 2005 (talk) 19:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Again, not the same thing. For example, linking to a company's website is appropriate in an article about that company, but inappropriate in an article about services that company provides. A company's home page may not directly sell a service, but the act of adding a link to that company to an article about services the company provides is basically using Wikipedia to advertise. For example, you cannot actually buy hamburgers and fries at www.mcdonalds.com, so it can be claimed that www.mcdonalds.com is NOT selling a product or a service. However, adding a link to www.mcdonalds.com to articles such as Hamburger or French fries or fast food should not be aloud. The line you quote does not explicitly forbid the kinds of links I am trying to "head off at the pass"... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
But you miss the point. A link to a McDonalds.com page on a hamburger article will often be an excellent link. For example, mcdonalds.com/history-of-the-hamburger/. You are proposing text that would throw out all useful links when such text is not necessary. The text we have says not to link to a page primarily for selling the product, so from the hamburger article we would not link to mcdonalds.com, but we would gladly link to mcdonalds.com/history-of-the-hamburger/. 2005 (talk) 20:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Excellent example. I think this does illustrate a need for some minor change in WP:ELNO 5: we should change the word "sites" to "web pages." There are many unarguably commercial sites which have very valuable neutral and informative pages with content that cannot be incorporated into WP some reason but which merit linking under this guideline. On the other hand, there are many non-commercial sites (such as NPO's), which have some pages dedicated to selling products related to their cause. Qazin (talk) 21:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree. The sites wording is bad. The wording can also be tweaked to include the concept above, but it should not be the blanket text suggested. Something like: For example, in the article about cell phones, one should not add a link to web pages that are simply about a cell phone service provider, product or manufacturer. 2005 (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
That should make it a lot clearer. However, I wouldn't object linking a page about a manufacturer or service provider as long as it isn't about the product or service. A page about the manufacturer's history, role in the industry, or current developments might be ok. But a page about the features and benefits of a particular phone or service would definitely be inappropriate. So, I'd lean towards something like:
5. Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services, or to web pages with objectionable amounts of advertising. For example, in the article about cell phones, one should not add a link to a web page that is simply about a cell-phone product or service.
(Hyphen is standard here because cell phone is a compound modifier of product or service.) Qazin (talk) 23:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I understand the objection to using the word "website" over the word "pages"... It makes sense. I am not trying to create any new policy here, I am only trying to clarify policy to reflect existing practice, and to do so in such a way as to give a single sentance which will unambiguously prevent the sort of gratuitous advertising that I have to block users for all the time. If we have a consise policy statement which covers this specific problem then it would be better. Again, as I already stated, I understand that existing policy already enables us to block users for this problem. What I am looking for is an unambiguous statement which will allow me to point users in the right direction without blocking them. The above attempt still misses the point, in that it only specifically forbids links to websites or pages that ITSELF sells a product or service. Let's try this alternate wording:

  1. Do not link to webpages of a company in any article that is not directly about that company. Specifically, links to webpages of a company are inappropriate when added to articles about general types of services or products that company provides. For example, it would be inappropriate to add a link to the main homepage of a cell phone manufacturer to the general article Cell phone. If the text of the specific page itself contains information which is directly cited by the article, it may be relevent to use such a page as an inline citation, however under normal circumstances it is generally inappropriate to advertise a company by adding a link to it's homepage under the external links or references sections of an article if such links are unconnected to specific parts of the text.

That is probably WAY too wordy, and I invite a copy edit, but that specific sort of linking is what I am trying to "head-off at the pass" and the existing list of "verboten" links does not consisely prohibit this sort of problem. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Generally, I think that the existing rule #5 is sufficient, but I'm open to adding an example.
This latest proposal is not acceptable to me. We don't object to linking to Apple.com at the article MacBook, even though the article is about the product instead of the company, and even though you can buy a MacBook directly from Apple Inc at that website. Apple's own information about their product is a perfectly legitimate use of ==External links==.
Qazin, I thought that hyphenation rule applied only to adjectives, not to double nouns. Additionally, I'd rewrite the example more concisely: "For example, do not link to telephone companies or manufacturers of mobile phones in the article Mobile phone." WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
However, you WOULD object to a link to apple.com in an article titled Computer wouldn't you? Not simply to a page at apple.com which is about the history of the personal computer and which is cited in the text, but rather a direct link to www.apple.com apropos of nothing in the article? See, help me write this policy to stop those sorts of links in an unambiguous way, but which also allows the legitimate use of such links in articles where they belong. See, the current policy can be used to sort-of-kind-of disallow those kind of links if you kinda-sorta read it right and what we need is a sentance that says "Don't do this", where this is adding links like http://www.apple.com to the article Computer. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Isn't that issue addressed by WP:ELNO 13? A link to a domain name is a link to the home page. The content on the Apple home page is not very relevant to the computers article. If there is a relevant Apple.com page, item 13 prescribes a deep link, if any. If someone puts a link in the computer article to the Apple home page, you are justified in removing it because the content on that page is not relevant, not merely because it is a link to a computer manufacturer. Qazin (talk) 05:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Two (or more) nouns are hyphenated when they are used together acting as a compound adjective, but not when they are used together as a subject or object. For example, in "She called the phone company" the noun phone acts as an adjective to company. In, "She called the phone-company manager" the nouns phone and company form a compound adjective to company. The way I remember it is that if the first modifier used alone with the object or subject conveys the wrong meaning (e.g. she didn't call the phone manager), then it modifies the second modifier and is therefore a compound modifier and needs a hyphen to avoid confusion. Qazin (talk) 03:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Your comment about linking to an Apple web page about MacBook convinces me that my proposal at 23:36 is too restrictive. In the cell phone article example, it is probably ok to link to a company web page about a particular cell phone or service if the page isn't an advertisement or order form for the product. For example, we might link to a Verizon page that shows a block diagram of their network, or to an LG page that shows the typical architecture of their phones. But, we wouldn't want to link to a sell sheet or order page for a phone, or an advertisement listing the features and benefits of Verizon service. This is essentially a corollary to NPOV in that information or links in an article should not champion one point of view, product, or service, over another. Advertising and promotional copy violates that. But it is the contents of the linked page that determines that, not who owns or hosts the page. So, avoid ...
5. Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services, or to web pages with objectionable amounts of advertising. For example, in the article about cell phones, one should not add a link to a web page that is mostly promoting or advertising a particular cell-phone product or service.
Qazin (talk) 03:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. It's always fun to find another person that knows something about these things (and to learn something).
"One should not add a link to a web page that is mostly promoting or advertising..." is wordy. "Avoid links that promote or advertise..." is more concise.
As a slightly different perspective, we might approach this as the "example" problem. We don't generally want links to any pages that are merely examples of the subject. So here we have Mobile phone and we want to avoid linking to examples of companies that make and/or sell mobile phones; previously, we had Pun and wanted to avoid linking to examples of puns.
I've just started thinking about it from this perspective, and I'm not sure it will hold up. There may be counterexamples that make a general rule against examples be inappropriate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
"Avoid links that promote or advertise..." IS much better. I've taken that and made it even more direct, but I've also left "mostly" in. We wouldn't eschew a page full of relevant content just because it has a small ad on it - only if it is mostly promotion or advertising. So, avoid:
5. Links to web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services, or to web pages with objectionable amounts of advertising. For example, in the mobile phone article, don't link to web pages that mostly promote or advertise cell-phone products or services.
Qazin (talk) 06:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
It looks like there is no more discussion or objections on this proposal, so I'll implement it. Please revert and discuss if necessary. Qazin (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Reference vs. Citation vs. External links (newbie alert)

<disclaimer>I apologize in advance for any newbie mistakes.</disclaimer>

I updated the "Maze" article today because I know of a hedge maze in Colonial Williamsburg that wasn't listed in the "Mazes open to the public, North America section". Wishing only to prove that the thing exists, I referenced an image of the maze on the Colonial Williamsburg web site.

I have no preference whether the link remains or not, but in reading more "guideline" pages, I'm wondering whether I should have put the hyperlink under "External Links" or made it a citation instead. Please advise the clueless (me). Thanks. Sciencenerd8 (talk) 02:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

None of the above. Images alone are not valid references per WP:RS. A direct link to the site that has the image on it noting its information would be more appropriate, at which point you should list it as a reference by adding it where you added the maze using the <ref>Your reference goes here</ref> tags. You can either format the reference manually, or for nicer appearance, by using the {{cite web}} template. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your guidance, Collectonian. I'll make the edit.

Sciencenerd8 (talk) 00:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Advice requested

I recently removed a few external links from Comparison of Star Trek and Star Wars, reproduced below from the article:

They seem to me to fall foul of quite a few of the WP:ELNO restrictions (particularly 2, 10 and 11), but I've since been reverted and was wondering if I was being too strict in my assessment. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts... EyeSerenetalk 20:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

They do fall foul of the guidelines. I removed them again linking the guidelines in my edit summary. It was a user with few edits that reverted you. I'll point the guidelines out to him if he adds them again. --GraemeL (talk) 20:41, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Thought so, thanks very much. I looked at the user's contribs, but didn't think there was enough there to warrant a warning just yet and wanted to check my interpretation of policy first. Your help is much appreciated ;) EyeSerenetalk 20:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

External links in film articles

There is currently discussion on the talk page of the film article The Mummy about including external links. The involved websites are Internet Movie Database, Allmovie, Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic, and Box Office Mojo. I have a few questions to make sure I understand how WP:EL applies:

  1. Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic are websites that compile reviews, and they are usually cited in the article body for the critic consensus of the film. Reviews are cited directly from their sources, and some of them are used in the article body. Is it necessary to avoid redundancy and remove an external link if it is already used in part as a source for the article? The way I see it, the websites are being utilized in two ways. In the article body, the critic consensus is being used, and as an external link, the websites provide a compilation of reviews for readers to explore (thus avoiding a link farm of reviews). For Box Office Mojo, a couple of figures are usually cited in the article body, but it also has numerous box office statistics beyond these figures. Does redundancy factor in here for these websites?
  2. Internet Movie Database is a website that is not used as a reliable source for Wikipedia articles. WP:EL does not clearly say, "External links must be reliable sources," and this seems to be by design. IMDb is a popular website for films with many different parts. Some parts, like the trivia pages, are pretty sloppy, being user-submitted. Other parts are electronic copies of what studios and distributors provide. There's also photos and forums. It just seems like a lot of different features for IMDb to be dismiss as a useful external link on the grounds of not being up to par as a reliable source for a Wikipedia article. What do others think?
  3. Allmovie is not a website that would be used in a Wikipedia article. It is a kind of "See also" link that shows possible similarities between a given film and others. Is this a website that would be acceptable or not as an external link?

Feedback would be greatly appreciated! —Erik (talk • contrib) 21:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

On the first question:
  1. Redundancy is bad.
  2. But, on rare occasions, non-redundancy is worse.
Generally, I'd assume that these were not good candidates for being repeated. For one thing, one of the primary goals at WP:EL is to find the minimum number of links reasonable for any given article, and these don't seem so important to the reader that listing them twice (and thus inflating the size of ==External links==) is worth it. But the real answer is one found when you and the other editors at that article (or those articles, as the case may be) employ your best editorial judgment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I suppose my thinking is that most items in the "References" section are generally "milked" of their use. The presence of a reference in this section does not necessarily indicate that there's more information enclosed; it more reflects where the information came from (verifiability and all that). So it's not redundancy in the conventional sense of pointing the reader to the same item twice. It's not explicitly clear that a reference will have substantially more information than what has been written into the article body, and it seems like per WP:ELYES, they can be treated as external links because they have more detail than could be appropriately worked into the article (three dozen reviews, associate producers' names, or daily box office performance). For websites like Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic, and Box Office Mojo, the most important information is usually highlighted on the main web page with additional substance provided on sub-pages. It's not a matter of how a paragraph from an article could not be worked into the article, so an external link allows a reader to finish it up. These external links are systemic because they have far more content than a Wikipedia article could handle in terms of reviews, cast and crew information, and box office statistics. How about the uses of IMDb and Allmovie, then? —Erik (talk • contrib) 22:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and no. Yes, some users ignore the references as unimportant. No, we're not generally interested in duplicating information just because some users skip directly to ==External links==. The point is the encyclopedic article, not other places to get information. You (in concert with the other regular editors on the article's talk page) can always choose to ignore these rules for non-duplication and minimizing the total number of links, assuming that you think that you have a good reason for doing so in the specific article in question. We are not going to change the rules, however, and I recommend that you comply with them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Wait, where does it say in the rules that a reliable source used in the article body cannot be duplicated as an external link for a different context? Nothing in WP:EL seems to indicate this. Believe me, in my editing process, I work as much useful information as possible from a website so it does not have to be an external link, but it is unrealistic to incorporate part of its content and not highlighting for readers an available wealth of content on another part of this website. —Erik (talk • contrib) 21:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
WP:ELYES clearly implies that something should not be used as an external link if the content can be worked into an article; and the guideline says "try to avoid separate links to multiple pages in the same website". There should almost never be a duplication between citations and external links. In terms of film articles it is particularly inappropriate since, as mentioned above, there are a whole bunch of sites that could commonly be linked in the external links section. We aren't a link farm, so needlessly duplicating links is foolish. Keep links to a minimum, don't add something that is already there. the only clear exception I can see would be if there was something referenced from an official site in the sources, and the official site should again be linked in external links. External links should be kept to a minimum. if there is a reason to not have one, like it is already linked, get rid of it. 2005 (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd agree with 2005. This case is particularly true about RT and Metacritic. The primary objective of linking these websites is providing access to multiple reviews available other than the ones already incorporated in the article. But when the aggregate ratings of the reviews from these two websites is mentioned in the article along with relevant references, I don't think there is any additional purpose served by putting in an external link for such sites. Box office mojo or IMdB on the other hand, provide a lot of other information that cannot be accommodated in the article. LeaveSleaves talk 23:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with your assessment of RT and MC. Let's put it this way: It so happens that the critic consensus is reported on the web page specific to the film and not a deeper subpage, so the same URL is used to cite this and to "try to avoid separate links to multiple pages" when treated as an external link. If it was a subpage, then there would be varied URLs (with the one used as an external link being the broader one), and perhaps we wouldn't be having this discussion. It strikes me as a matter of semantics; I could try to find another source that mentions what RT reports to be the critic consensus of a film, then all of a sudden the external link is okay to provide readers access to a collection of reviews. The duplication is not on purpose at all; it is happenstance that the detail relevant to the article body is on the most conventional link that could be provided (to avoid linking to different pages on the same website). If they are not highlighted as external links, then expecting the reader to explore a section intended for verifiability for additional content is unrealistic. It's not foolish; it's a matter of convention because the URL happens to be the same, and there are two different benefits to it -- the consensus in the article body, and the multitude of reviews that are provided off-wiki (which in turns prevents a link farm and undue weight in selecting reviewers). The same applies to Box Office Mojo; the opening weekend and the total revenue is on the most conventional URL for a film's page on that website, and there is much more statistical information behind these two article-worthy details. Hope you understand what I'm getting at. —Erik (talk • contrib) 23:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Sure, there might, on occasion, be a good reason to duplicate links between the two sections. But in the vast majority of cases, if the reader wants more information, then the reader can go click on things in the references section. Wikipedia is not a linkfarm, and in keeping with that character, the goal is the shortest justifiable list of links under ==External links==. If a reader thinks that no useful information can be found in ==References==, then that's not our fault: we list amazing resources there all the time.
Furthermore, for the purposes of the non-duplication concept, we generally interpret "website.com/somemovie/details" and "website.com/somemovie/" as being sufficiently similar that the inclusion of both is not justified (for ==EL==. For ==Refs==, they'd definitely want each specific webpage being used to be listed separately). So the semantic issue doesn't really exist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
On the second issue:
External links do not have to meet the requirements for reliable sources. See WP:ELMAYBE #4.
Your task with IMDb (under this rule) is to vet the specific page that you are linking to. If this specific IMDb page looks like it would be valuable or interesting to readers (as determined by considering the principles outlined in this guideline), then you can link to it. What you can't do is assume that every single article about a movie will always, or even usually, benefit from a link to IMDb (or any other website). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree; I've had some thoughts about clarifying in MOS:FILM not to use some external links if they are not applicable. For older films, items like Rotten Tomatoes and Box Office Mojo would be useless as external links. I think that IMDb happens to rank highly in universality, but I get what you mean. —Erik (talk • contrib) 21:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Linking to multiple official sites and social networking sites

Alright - On the Talk:Stephanie_Adams#MySpace_and_External_Links talk page section some editors agreed to not link to official Myspace, Facebook, Bebo etc. pages of people and organizations if the organization has its own official website. The "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:" exception had been interpreted as one link to one official page and not multiple links to subject profiles on social networking websites - and this concept has been applied to other discussions such as Talk:Encyclopedia_Dramatica/Archive_13#ED_Facebook.2C_myspace.2C_Bebo_links

So, is this an appropriate interpretation of WP:EL's exception? Should this be coded into WP:EL? How should official social networking websites be handled? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Social networking site content is dynamic and unpredictable, and generally not appropriate for an EL, in my opinion. If a subject has an official site, it should be linked. If a subject has a myspace and a facebook, why should we try to link to both? I'm willing to be convinced that there's value, but I don't see it right now. Jclemens (talk) 19:46, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
"an official page"; but that means one. Yes, if their only official page is Myspace or whatever, then that's their one; but only one. This isn't a license to create and maintain a linkfarm. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
No that is not the case. Multiple official sites is both fine, and desirable. It is very common to link to a business' consumer site as well as their corporate site. Both are official, have different content and should be linked to. If an official myspace includes soemthing an official site does not, like four songs or touring information for a band, then it also should be linked. If it is just a myspace with friends and inane comments, then it should not. It's a judgment call, but one size certainly does not fit all here. The main thing though is the language definitely does not mean just one and only one all the time. 2005 (talk) 23:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
No that is not the correct interpretation. There is a widespread consensus among editors that often more than one is best for articles. The current text is fine and sensible. 2005 (talk) 23:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
What makes a site an "official" site? Just because the person in question uses the site doesn't mean its official at all. I thought blogs like myspace and facebook (especially if they require a user to register like facebook does) were to be avoided at all costs. Stephanie already has an official website http://www.stephanieadams.com/ which claims at the top that it's the official site for her. That alone should be linked to as her official site. Her playboy and IMDB are also acceptable external links. Facebook and Myspace are social networking sites. If she had a Wikipedia account but wasn't notable as a Wikipedian would we link to her userpage? Certainly not! Themfromspace (talk) 23:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
An official site is determined by the entity the article is about. If a person says "this is my only official site", then it is. If a business says "this is my official consumer site" and "this is my official corporate site", then they are. If "official-ness" is not obvious for a second link, then don't link it. If it is obvious, then link it if it has substationally different content and isn't just essentially part of the navigation of the first official site. If there are three or four official sites (in English) with a distinct focus, fine, if there are dozens of mini sites, then pick one or maybe a three or four that serve the encyclopedic needs of users. 2005 (talk) 23:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I think User:2005 has done a good job of setting forth the principles: you can provide links to official site(s), but only if there's a good reason to. Multiple links to essentially identical websites don't meet the basic goal of the "minimum" number of links: no one wants to see a list of three dozen "official" websites for a multinational corporation. On the other hand, excluding an otherwise appropriate link simply because the person/organization/company/whatever happens to have more than one "official" website is silly. These principles are in tension, and the editors at the page have to figure out the correct balance in each individual case. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
First, there's a difference between an official business site, and band's self-written official site. In one, the company is legally responsible for false information. (I was in an company which was successfully sued for Web page content.) In the other, there are few legal constraints, and the band can publish self-serving material with little basis in fact.
Second, WP:ELNO has a long list of things that are normally to be avoided. These include, non-unique resources, unverifiable research, promotion, accessibility, social sites, etc. It defeats their purpose to say effectively: it's ok to give external links to any number of band pages that require plug-ins, login, have advertisements, self-promotion, factually inaccurate and unverifiable research...just as long so long as they are titled "official". That concept is very far from encyclopedic. Piano non troppo (talk) 16:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Read the first sentence of ELNO... Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject... The purpose is not "defeated". We specifically, deliberately and very plainly exempt official sites from those ELNO prohibitions. We are an encyclopedia. Linking to official sites is encyclopedic and common sense. If an official site is a piece of crap, we don't care, that is how the entity wants to present itself. We don't link to third party crap sites. If a company wants to present itself to the public badly, we aren't here to say they can't. We have an article on the company, with a link to the company presenting itself however they want (except for viruses and stuff like that). 2005 (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
This is going to only concern music. MySpace has made it easy for artists, espically indy artists and bands, to create their own space to promote themselves. In the case of a band it is possible that every member of that band has their own MySpace. These can all be "official" pages. It is also very comm