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This is not the page to report problems to administrators or request blocks.
	This page is for discussion of the Wikipedia:Blocking policy itself. Report incidents such as block evasion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Report violations of the three-revert rule at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Report active, persistent vandals at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism.

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Question at New admin school

Resolved.

I've posted a question about blocking templates at New Admin School. However, as there doesn't seem to be much traffic there, I suspect it may be a while before someone sees it and answers it, so I thought I would ask about it here. Could someone please pop over and answer my question, please? StephenBuxton (talk) 09:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

"Indefinite" is infinitely confusing to people

It seems to me that every time indeffing a user comes up on AN/I, a significant chunk of people seem to think that means "forever" (and sometimes object on that basis). What do people think of changing the term? Right now, I'm thinking of "indeterminate block" or "open-ended block." (Please point me to any previous discussion if it's been had before.) IronDuke 03:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it is very much dependent on the intentions of the blocking admin. I've made indef blocks noting that the block will last only until some condition is met, and I have made blocks that I don't ever intend to be lifted. Vandal only accounts and sockpuppets come to mind. Perhaps we should add "100 years" to the block time dialog. Kevin (talk) 07:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Although I love the 100 years idea it will eventual end up in some news article under "Christian promoter banned from Wikipedia for 100 years"--mboverload@ 07:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback... I think Kevin's point underscores mine: "indef" is confusing to people, as admins use it for different purposes. For example, let's say an otherwise good user goes off on a racist rant at a talk page after being warned of this behavior previously. An admin might issue an indefinite block, then take it to AN/I for feedback on how long the block should last. Fine and good, except that some people might start arguing to overturn it on the mistaken grounds that indefinite = infinite. If the block were "indeterminate," (call it, say, WP:INDET), I think people would more clearly get the message that such a block might last forever, or it might last only a few hours, and be less likely to argue for immediately overturning the block, or that it was somehow "draconian." IronDuke 19:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

For all intents and purposes, an indefinite block is infinite unless an admin removes it... unlike the other block periods which do not require admin action to "time out" and restore the editor's access. I think anyone getting indefinitely blocked should just assume it is permanent unless they can receive a favorable block review. The very fact that you have to be acting like a complete imbecile in the first place to warrant an indefinite block shouldn't make us worry too much about whether or not the blocked user gets upset about it. Hiberniantears (talk) 20:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

We do care about persuading difficult user to contribute usefully--many is the troll who eventually turned into a decent editor judging even from the people who admit as much. Since some admins do give indefinite block for user name violations or for isolated episodes of vandalism, I would not assume that it is in fact acting like a cmplete imbecile. There is a major distinction between the blocks that mean : you are blocked until you say you are sorry. to the sort of block w'd give a serial violator after increasing shorter blocks. I think the wording INDETERMINATE suggested above is as good as any. DGG (talk) 02:58, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

On reflection, although I don't generally support "change for its own sake", this probably has merit and I would support it. The term "indefinite block", while technically accurate and familiar, is not one I would mind changing if it would help reduce some friction. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 16:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Cool down blocks (yet again)

I know this has been done to death, but there was a removal/replacement of the section again today, so I though I'd put my thoughts down. It has been oft stated that cool down blocks are issued every day, however the real purpose of those blocks is to prevent disruption (optimistic and possibly naive I know). So the block should be based on the behavioral symptom of the user's anger, i.e. edit warring, incivility or whatever rather than the anger itself. Whether the block makes the user less angry then is a bit irrelevant, so long as the disruption stops.

I propose that the wording of the section be changed from:

• Blocks intended solely to "cool down" an angry user should never be used, as they inevitably serve to inflame the situation.

To:

• Blocks should be based on the actual behavior of users, and not their perceived state of mind. If an angry users behavior has not become disruptive, then a block is only likely to inflame the situation.

- Kevin (talk) 11:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I like that wording. It is much clearer, maybe a little tweaking is needed but the thought is good :-) SoWhy 12:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I reinstated the sentence because the community has not agreeded to the removal of it, and the unilateral action was pointy. Synergy 12:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

How about something like this:

The community has rejected the idea that agitated situations and emotional users should be "helped" to calm down by enforcing a time-out when there is no disruption occuring. This may make matters worse, not better. Blocking should only be used to prevent likely or actual disruptive behavior, not because of well-intentioned wishes to help with their perceived state of mind.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 16:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Temporary discussion/topic bans as an alternative to blocking?

We have had countless disputes about the propriety of individual blocks and 'types' of blocks (e.g. 'cool down' blocks immediately above)... but they never seem to get anywhere. I believe the reason is that we have all these policies about people needing to be civil, avoid edit warring, not push a POV, remain neutral, et cetera... and essentially only one remedy (two if protection can help) when they don't.

I suggest we add a less severe option than blocking for dealing with problems. Adopt a policy that admins should tell people who are going outside the bounds first to tone it down, and if that fails that they must step away from the discussion / topic (for a set amount of time or until close of the discussion)... INSTEAD of the corresponding block which would be given now.

Yes, this would still be applied unevenly... but it could also still be overturned if there were a consensus against it, is a less severe 'slap in the face', leaves no aggravating accusation in the block log, and allows them to continue working on things where they AREN'T in dispute.

Yes, some users will undoubtedly ignore the instruction (as some now sockpuppet around blocks), but it could be enforced by reversion or blocking by a different admin. Maybe only things like blatant vandalism and refusing to follow policy or back away when told to do so ought to be 'blockable'. Requiring a different admin to place the block would also mean that at least two admins need to see something as a problem before it results in a block.

Yes, there will still be complaints of 'censorship' and 'bias'... but users could put a template on their talk page (in place of the current 'unblock' template) requesting their ban be reviewed or that facts they feel aren't being represented in the discussion be added there (calmly) by someone else.

Basically, it could work exactly like blocking (right down to the warning templates with links to the applicable policy) does currently... without the actual block unless people refuse to hand it over to cooler heads when told to do so. Cool down blocks do not work. It's true. However, the fact remains that we need to have some way to cool things down when people get heated. I believe this could work. At least better than the current system. --CBD 18:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I suspect this would fail just as the warnings admins give usually fail. Saying "You may not do X again, or you will be blocked" has not proven a successful deterrent, so I suspect saying "You may not go near topic X for a day, or you will be blocked" will have the same issues. MBisanz ^talk 19:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If this is a "less severe" option, will it then be seen as having a lower threshold of use, and thus have a greater risk of overuse? And would it have a logging mechanism? If not, how would one spot admins going topic ban-happy? Franamax (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Arbcomm discretionary sanctions often include the possibility of issuing topic bans, and it is a relatively frequently used tool in that box of non-standard tools. Such topic bans always have to be logged on the relevant arbitration case's page and are usually the result of a report to and discussion at WP:AE. Take a look at the 9/11 case or the various nationalist cases for examples. What they don't get used for in these situations is cool down - instead they are used when review indicates an ongoing problem of problematic behavior that is unlikely to change soon - indeed the WP:AE review often takes a day or more to reach a decision. As so used, there is a range of comprehensiveness to the degree of ban. Some users get banned from the content page but not talk, some from both, some from any related discussion (ie XFD also), some from any related page and talk pages and related discussions. GRBerry 21:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing stopping any admin from using this right now as a milder form of what we could do anyway. (Many of us have given warnings that say, if you do not take a break from this topic for a day or two, I will need to block you.) I agree it would not help all of the time, but it will with the more rational people who have just gotten overinvolved in things. It also serves as a very useful signal--if it is ignored or violated, it clearly indicates a lack of willingness to cooperate. DGG (talk) 02:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Incivility during a block

What if a blocked user engages in blatant incivility on his/her own talk page during his/her block, like here? MuZemike (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Protect the talk page if it happens after a warning (or just as soon). If thats an attempt at a request for unblock (more than likely it isn't), then its denied. But since it was so long ago, then probably nothing. Synergy 05:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Cool down blocks II

I have deleted this section as unnecessary. Administrators are selected for their judgment. If an user is upset and causing disruption, administrators may block the user to prevent the disruption, in hopes that after the passage of time the user will no longer be so angry and better able to exercise self-control. Absolutist statements are usually harmful. Administrators need to use their good judgment. Jehochman ^Talk 19:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, but the section in question refers to a user being blocked solely for being upset, not for casuing disruption. Cool down blocks are a hugely bad idea. IronDuke 19:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I support the section remaining in place. Per Iron Duke and many other commenters here who think that admin judgement should not extend to forming a theory of mind. It is an absolute statement, but it does not prevent the admin exercising judgement as to whether actual harm is being done. It is just a stricture against deciding that theoretical harm may be done, or that paternalistic intervention is appropriate. Franamax (talk) 21:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

In that case, can we clarify the section? Don't block for state of mind (such as angry editor needing to cool down, or ...). Block to prevent disruption. Jehochman ^Talk 22:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. Tweaked it a bit, for clarity. IronDuke 23:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not happy with either of these [1] [2] last two versions. They both still require a theory - what is "angry" and what is "prevent"? Until actual disruption occurs, the admin efforts should be directed to calming the situation, and outlining the alternative options for the "angry" user. Diagnosing anger, deciding that actual damage is certain to imminently occur, and thus a need for a pre-emptive block - these to me seem fraught with peril, and this policy should not condone any such course. The admin is expected to exercise judgement as to the diagnosis (it's pretty easy to see when someone is becoming overwrought); to watch and attempt to calm the situation; but not to act in that paternalistic manner of "this will be good for you".

It's a shame to see the "inflame the situation" wording removed, as it's almost certainly true. Perhaps it's more appropriate at new-admin school, I dunno. And I have no better wording immediately to hand. But I'm not comfortable right now - there seems to be an avenue for blocking consisting only of "I decided it would be best" - which essentially now sanctions cool-down blocks. Franamax (talk) 00:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I took another stab, thoughts welcome. IronDuke 03:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

That's better, although "serious" now becomes overstated, and the entire second sentence is rendered superfluous - per JEH's assertion that admin judgement takes effect, angry or not, disruption gets blocked.

This all comes down to "can we do cool-down blocks?". As I've asked elsewhere, JEH and IronDuke - can you give an example where you've issued a block solely for the purpose of giving the user a time-out in advance of them becoming disruptive? Can you give an example where another admin has done so? Franamax (talk) 03:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

We should try to avoid absolutist statements, like "never" and "always". If a user says, "Fuck you, I am going revert every one of your edits," I think they can be blocked on the spot, without waiting to see if they carry through on the threat. Jehochman ^Talk 17:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, because making such a statement is itself disruptive. I have also tweaked the language a little more to clarify the emphasis on preventing further disruption. — Satori Son 17:51, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree that never and always are words that should always never be used. But JEH, in the case of that profane user, shouldn't the next step be a serious warning? Or does that make you an involved admin, unable to act further? Franamax (talk) 18:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If somebody tells me they are going to be highly disruptive, I might assume that they are telling the truth, and block them on the spot, or I might give them a stern warning. It depends on the user and the situation. This stuff can't be codified. We can't legislate clue. Jehochman ^Talk 18:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

All I can say is, it's about time. I suggested this type of amendment in July. Synergy 17:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's important to kep in mind that "cool down" blocks often happen after a user has been blocked and comes back angry. We should allow people to blow off a bit of steam, even of they're being a little uncivil towards the admin who blocked them. "Fuck you" is never okay, although "Wow, you're a terrible admin" is in this case overlookable -- I really don't like it when remarks like that result in another block by the admin being referred to. It smacks too much of "I blocked you for mouthing off to me." And creates moar dramah. IronDuke 19:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Admins need to have a thick skin. I have overlooked a "Fuck you" on a user's own talk page as blowing off steam. The same remark on the administrator's noticeboard would probably be blocked. Screaming epithets in your own home is different from screaming them in the village square. Jehochman ^Talk 19:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Well said. IronDuke 19:18, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Question

If an article is created and/or if an image was created by a banned user, will those articles and/or images be required to get deleted? If so, show me a policy that says that. Mythdon (talk) 10:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

How's this?. Creating == editing. Franamax (talk) 16:38, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

If good faith contributors have edited such an article or used such an image, WP:IAR would be applicable not to delete them. It is more important to protect the work of good faith contributors than to remove every single contribution of banned users. Jehochman ^Talk 19:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Information for reviewing and unblocking administrators

I've added a short section on this, with some examples (feel free to brevify if needed). A number of unblock disputes would not happen if admins were more aware that it helps to give this kind of information for any reviewing admin to read. A number of more careful admins regularly do so routinely, to avoid disputes or misunderstandings related to blocks and unblocking. Hopefully simple and non-contentious.

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 18:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Update - edited for the following edits:

1. Page intro should probably say that good communication is needed - general point about all blocks and unblocks. Added: Because blocks may be reviewed and appealed, it is often important that the blocking and reviewing administrators each communicate with and take care to inform the other.
2. Section intro for "unblocking" did not explain unblocking or common reasons - just dived straight into how to request unblocking. Added a paragraph at the start of the section about unblocking itself.
3. Split section intro into headline points about unblocking generally, vs. a subsection "block reviews" -- gives it more logical flow and puts the quotation in a better context.
4. Moved the paragraph "Otherwise, administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator..." to the subsection about "block reviews".
5. Merged two paragraphs about block review, for simplicity.

diff

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 13:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Indefinite blocks

The policy states:

"An indefinite block is a block that does not have a fixed duration. Indefinite blocks are usually applied when there is significant disruption or threats of disruption, or major breaches of policy. In such cases an open-ended block may be appropriate to prevent further problems until the matter can be resolved by discussion.

If not one administrator will lift the block, the blocked user is effectively considered to have been banned by the community. In less extreme cases, however, the more usual desired outcome is a commitment to observe Wikipedia's policies and—if unblocked—to refrain from the problematic conduct in future."

However, what if another administrator wants to lift the block but the blocking administrator will not allow it; to prevent a violation of WP:Wheel war, the indefinite block will remain in place. The editor will remain indefinitely blocked but not banned. However, clearly the intent of an indefinite block is to allow time for the matter to be resolved by discussion or alternatively to lead to a ban due to no administrator wanting to lift the ban. The case of an administrator not being allowed to lift the block is not properly considered in this policy. Please modify the policy to account for this circumstance. --Hit the fan (talk) 22:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

No modification is needed. Your described circumstance would occur rarely and would in all cases lead to further discussion of the original block. Typically, the blocking admin would refuse to unblock himself but would allow someone else to do so and take the responsibility for what he obviously deems an unwise decision. JodyB _talk 03:06, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, then for clarification purposes, could you please add the following link to "banned by the community" to the policy article since I am currently unable to do so because semi-protection:

If not one administrator will lift the block, the blocked user is effectively considered to have been banned by the community. In less extreme cases, however, the more usual desired outcome is a commitment to observe Wikipedia's policies and—if unblocked—to refrain from the problematic conduct in future.

The linked section adds important information about indefinite blocks and could help to avoid misunderstandings of the policy. --Hit the fan (talk) 14:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I see what you are saying but have two issues: First, the link to the banning policy is already in place. Second, a ban could conceivably not by the community but by ARBCOM or even the office. JodyB _talk 16:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the existing and less specific link. Let's concentrate on the issue of indefinite blocks and the bans that can result from them. My problem is that the sentence, "If not one administrator will lift the block, the blocked user is effectively considered to have been banned by the community.", is misleading in that it does not provide enough information. The additional information can be found in the section I linked. How about this:

If not one administrator will lift the block, the blocked user is effectively considered to have been banned by the community. In less extreme cases, however, the more usual desired outcome is a commitment to observe Wikipedia's policies and—if unblocked—to refrain from the problematic conduct in future. For further information on community bans resulting from indefinite blocks, see Community ban. --Hit the fan (talk) 18:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: User:Hit the fan is a CU confirmed sockpuppet of banned User:Jagz. MBisanz ^talk 18:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent moves and changes

Please consider this and that. How can we make clear both points that: 1/ admins are responsible to fully understand the facts when making an unblock decision and should generally contact the blocking admin to be sure they have full facts, and 2/ blocking admins should attempt to make clear any non-obvious circumstances and indicate whether they might not need to be contacted during a block review. Using both belt and suspenders helps avoid getting caught with pants down. Jehochman ^Talk 03:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I've had a go, by slightly reorganizing (without textual change to the wording).

I have split apart within "implementing blocks", the subsections on technical settings and advice when blocking, and the subsections on notifications and evidence supporting a block. I have grouped the latter in their own section (covering "notification to blocked users", "information provided by blocking admin", and "confidential evidence"), with a brief introduction added:

OLD:

* Education and warnings
* Implementing blocks 
  - IP address blocks
  - Duration of blocks 
  - Setting block options
  - Reasons and notification
  - Information provided by blocking administrator
  - Confidential evidence

NEW:

* Explanation on blocking 
  - Notification of block
  - Information provided by blocking administrator
  - Confidential evidence
* Education and warnings
* Implementing blocks 
  - IP address blocks
  - Duration of blocks 
  - Setting block options

So there is now clear explanation what a blocking admin should consider in terms of explanation, evidence, and forethought... and also what a reviewing admin should do in terms of their communication and awareness of possible issues, too. Belt and braces?

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 04:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Is there any chance we can we get both sides of the current dispute to endorse these best practices? Jehochman ^Talk 04:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I recently moved some material closer to the front. I see FT2 has changed that. I want to make clear that I see much merit in FT2s recent changes. However, it still seems to me that if there is confidential evidence for the block, the blocker needs to (not be urged to) say so. Obviously one can signal that there is confidential evidence without saying what the evidence is and thus violating the confidentiality. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

You added a subsection close to the start of the page, which I removed. My reasons were as follows: The text you had added was virtually a copy of the existing last paragraph at #Block reviews. The main significant difference was in the first sentence:

• OLD - Administrators reviewing a block should be aware that there may be history or actions which may not be recognized, or whose importance may be misunderstood.
• NEW - In some cases a prior ArbCom decision or checkuser decision may warrant a block. In these cases the blocking administrator should note the fact in the block tag. In some cases there is relevant history that justifies the block, the blocking administrator must state so in the block.

Almost the entirety of the rest was a duplication.

So the effect of your edit was to 1/ duplicate mostly a paragraph already in the policy, 2/ change it from a paragraph about what reviewing admins must think of, to a paragraph about what blocking admins must write (removing the onus on reviewers to think of such things), and 3/ in any event the need for blocking admins to think of these things was already in the policy anyway, in the various sections about how to implement blocks. Hopefully the new grouping, that identifies more clearly what the blocking admins might do, and what reviewing admins might do, will help.

(The subsection on confidential matters was unchanged by either of us and remains at #Confidential evidence, exactly as before.)

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 16:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Requesting comments about blocking policy

An interesting RfC is ongoing about the actions of admin Slrubenstein (talk · contribs), who overturned a block of one of his allies, Mathsci (talk · contribs), without consulting with the blocking admin, Charles Matthews (talk · contribs). Specific questions being covered:

• Should an admin be required to consult with the blocking admin, before overturning a block?
• Is it acceptable for an admin to use tools in support of an editor, if that editor is one of the admin's regular allies in other editing disputes?

Comments and opinions are welcome at: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/SlrubensteinII. --Elonka 17:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The assertion that these editors are "allies" is a question being discussed in the RfC. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Infinite != Indefinite ?

Ok, so in running through WP:New admin school today, I noticed that there are two possible blocking options, one for "indefinite" and one for "infinite". Now, I know the mathematical distinction between those two words. But, in a practical sense, what is the difference to Wikipedia between an infinite and an indefinite block?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 10:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understood it, "indefinite" means that the block will be timed but it depends on the user to determine how long (e.g. when blocked for vandalism only, they may become unblocked when they request so and promise to stop such behavior). "Infinite" on the other hand means that this account is blocked forever (e.g. through a community ban). That said, I never actually really thought about it... I am using Animum's great EasyBlock script for blocking purposes through which I do not have to use the block form in 99% of all cases. Now that you sparked my interest, maybe someone else can explain to both of us the difference. ;-) Regards SoWhy 10:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You're looking at the drop-down box for blocking a user. "Infinite" doesn't really exist. It sets a block with a very long term expiry date. That option isn't much used. By contrast, "indefinite" is widely used, mainly for two purposes:

1. Users whose conduct is such that they should be blocked not for a "fixed period", but basically "until the problem is resolved" (WP:INDEF). This could be as simple as "You are blocked until you agree not to engage in posting copyright material on the wiki". It could be resolved in minutes. But it is a "Block until resolved" or "Block while being discussed" issue (as opposed to say some incident where a fixed block is set), often due to seriousness or repetition, basically "we don't want to see this kind of thing again, when you discuss and that's sorted out, then the block's done its job".
2. Users who are basically blocked with the likelihood that the block isn't anticipated to be reversed in the foreseeable future. Vandalism only users, users with personal attack habits they can't drop, and so on. Basically, "No more editing from you" type blocks. (Such users may appeal, and you'll see there is a common theme: block with no fixed end point, and unblocking becomes possible if the need for the block vanishes.)

The talk page or block summary will explain which was in the blocking admins mind. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 03:11, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation, FT2, that was helpful. Out of curiosity, what is the expiry date on "infinite"?--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 04:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It should be the average age of a human life. That would make sense. Unless of course vandals want to pass down their accounts through generation to generation than the expiry time should be "forever" 220.239.47.163 (talk) 07:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)